FIRST SUPPLEMENTARY DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR 1963 OF THE STATE OF SINGAPORE (CMD. 16 OF 1963) - (CONTD.)

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

The Chairman (Mr Mammen): Mr Ong Chang Sam.

Mr Ong Chang Sam: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head D.56 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 6.

Subhead 6 relates to the Pulau Senang Settlement. I wish to ask the Minister for Home Affairs to tell this House how many persons are being detained in Pulau Senang Settlement and of those who are detained there, the longest for how many years, what crimes they have committed, and what are the conditions for their release? I also wish the Minister for Home Affairs could tell this House the actual facts regarding the incident in April where the officers in Pulau Senang were assaulted.

As fair as I know, the Government has set up a camp to rehabilitate all those secret society members who were released, but it makes use of these gangster members to take part in the mass rallies and on other occasions organised by the Government. If they did not present themselves at the meetings, then their salaries would be cut for three days. I would like the Minister for Home Affairs to tell this House whether there have been such incidents.

The Chairman: Mr Ong Pang Boon, in Mandarin?

Mr Ong Pang Boon (In English): No, I do not think so.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I am not sure whether this is the appropriate time for him to raise the first few questions and whether I should answer him here. The questions about the number of detainees in Pulau Senang, how long they have been detained in Pulau Senang, and the conditions for their release - those are questions being asked by the Member for Anson. So I think I should reserve the answers when it comes to his questions.

As for the incident which happened in April, I would suggest the Member for Choa Chu Kang put it in the form of a question and I shall give him an answer here.

As for the last allegation, that those Pulau Senang detainees who have been released into the Work Brigade Camp have been asked to attend government functions and all that, I wish to deny completely the false allegation made.

Mr David Marshall: Mr Deputy Speaker, I have visited Pulau Senang, Sir, and I have been struck by the amount of work that has been carried out there - a very considerable amount of work. I was informed that there is an average of about 400 persons there. Sir, we want to remember that they are not prisoners. They have never been convicted by any court of law. They are detainees detained by order of the Minister on inadequate information to convict them in a court of law, otherwise they would be produced in Court.

7.12 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Mr David Marshall: The Minister, in the public interest, on suspicion detains them. And these arc the persons we call gangsters or who are alleged to be gangsters. One thing I want to draw your attention to, Mr Chairman, is that there is no right in law to make these people work, no right whatever; but with a now traditional capacity for intimidation, what in China is called persuasion, the P.A.P. makes it plain to these detainees that if they do not agree to work, they do not have to but they will not come out of gaol alive. It is very simple. We have power to detain you for ever and a day, not like the Judges of this country who can only send you to prison for life, which means 15 years. We have power to detain you for ever and a day. Every two years it is renewed. And so these detainees, under threat, which in a different climate would constitute criminal intimidation, volunteer to work, Mr Chairman, and they are working in the heat of the day - and I do say heat, Sir, of the day. They are working, I understand, 8 hours a day and I accept the assurance I received from the Commissioner of Prisons that they do not work for more than 8 hours at very hard manual labour; and they get paid, Sir. Do you know how much they get paid? - 10 cents a day.

I remember in Japan, as a prisoner of war being made to work at the same type of work and being paid 10 Japanese sen a day which I never received, because at the end of 10 days they exchanged it for 10 cigarettes for 1 yen, 1 cigarette a day. But here these people are paid 10 cents a day.

Mr Chairman, there are two things I want to draw your attention to, apart from having drawn attention to the fact that these persons have not been convicted. I know we are on Pulau Senang itself only and I shall limit myself to the issue there, and it is this, that there is a responsibility, where a person is not properly convicted, for us to look after those families whom we deprive of their bread winner. I think that there is a duty to maintain them reasonably.

There is a second aspect and it is this, Mr Chairman; there is a duty on us to pay for work according to the value of the work, that is to say, according to trade union rates. These people, I repeat, are not prisoners. These are basic issues.

7.15 p.m.

One other matter, Mr Chairman - I was received with every courtesy and shown, I believe, all round the island, certainly all the places that I wished to see. But it is rather far away, and possibly it is not often visited. I may be wrong in this, but I came away with a very strong impression of an aura of fear in all those detainees, an aura of helplessness and hopelessness, because they are so utterly at the mercy of every minor official on that island. Their release or their continued detention is at the whim of officials and is no longer subject to law. They are beyond the pale of the law. It is the rule of fear. It is a very unhealthy atmosphere. I am informed, Sir, contrary to my fear, that, in fact, there is no cohesion between the different gangs from whom these 400 people are alleged to be drawn. That is one matter which I find it difficult to understand and which would like the Minister to explain if he can; whether, in fact, bringing these people in close propinquity over a long period subject to not merely superior discipline of the officers from the prisons but the discipline of their own groups does not build an esprit de corps which could endanger our peace if in fact they are - as I have no doubt some of them are - drawn from secret society gangs.

One final matter, Mr Chairman. It is a dreadfully forlorn spot, this wrongly named island. I would like to hear some public assurance that the officers in the Prison service, who are condemned to do part do their duty on that island, receive some recompense in some fashion either by way of special leave or over-time pay because, Mr Chairman, they are doing jobs not originally envisaged under the Prison service.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think, in fact, some of the points mentioned by the Member for Anson have already been raised in the form of questions and I would be repeating the answers if I were to answer him in detail now. But briefly, what I would like to say is that prior to the P.A.P. Government assuming office, the detainees who were detained under the Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Ordinance had, in fact, no means of securing their own release, because there is no scheme for rehabilitating these secret society members and what the previous Government did was to lock them up in Changi, three to a cell. Now, when we came to power we thought that this state of affairs was undesirable and that something should be done to rehabilitate these detainees so that they could be returned to society as normal human beings. Therefore, the Government appointed an ad hoc committee in December 1959 to inquire into the existing arrangements for the detention of persons under the Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Ordinance 1955 and to make recommendations for any modifications or alterations of the existing arrangements and also to make recommendations for the rehabilitation of detainees.

The report of this ad hoc committee was submitted in January 1960, and I would like to draw the attention of the Member for Anson to sections 6 and 7 of the said Report which can be found in the Report of the Prisons Inquiry Commission, 1960. Except for some minor modifications based on practical experience, the Government has, in fact, implemented the scheme for the rehabilitation of criminal law detainees or better known as the Pulau Senang Scheme recommended by this ad hoc committee.

I wish to say that detainees who go to Pulau Senang volunteer to go there and also voluntarily agree to work there. The work they do at Pulau Senang is not punitive in any sense but part and parcel of the whole rehabilitation process of teaching the detainees the normal acceptable standard of conduct in society and to equip them with the necessary skills for making an honest and productive livelihood when they are released.

So far as I can say, it is very much of an experiment, and I think only time can tell whether the scheme is really a success. But judging from the results since the implementation of the scheme, I would say so far the results have been encouraging.

The Member for Anson just now mentioned about an aura of fear in Pulau Senang. I just wish to repeat what the Director of Prisons replied to him, that is, he went, in fact, at the wrong time. When the Member for Anson visited Pulau Senang, there was an incident which happened just a week before his visit where, I think, a warder or several warders had been assaulted `by some criminal law detainees, and consequent upon that, these detainees were punished. They might have been sullen as a result of that. Presumably that might have given the impression to the Member for Anson that there was an aura of fear. But I have myself made several visits to Pulau Senang, and I do not think there is an aura of fear. In fact, the detainees were very pleased to speak to me. In fact, occasionally, they even raised problems to me. I did not detect any aura of fear.

As for the dependants of the detainees, if they are in difficulty, they can always go to the Social Welfare Department and public assistance is always given to them. As for the law wages of the detainees - and I am sure the Member for Anson was informed by the Director of Prisons - it is receiving the attention of the Government. In fact, their wages have been increased to 30 cents a few months ago. I think, since early this year, their wages have been increased to 30 cents a day and the Government is considering further increases if it can afford to do so.

Now, the Government do recognise that the officers working in Pulau Senang are isolated from society and therefore merit some compensation for the isolation that they have to undergo. In fact, the Government gives each officer $3 allowance a day extra, and in addition to this the Government also gives each officer one day leave per week over and above their normal leave period. In other words, each officer is entitled to two and a half days rest per week.

Mr David Marshall: Mr Speaker, I am sorry if my little speech gave the impression that I was criticising the concept of Pulau Senang. The fact that I did not praise it is possibly due to the unhappy infection from P.A.P. traditions of never saying anything nice about your opponents. The concept of Pulau Senang and the experiment of Pulau Senang is a good one. What I am criticising is that we are using persons who have not been convicted by any courts as slave labour. The Minister having been there - and I know he has been there - must be impressed by the very considerable assets in buildings, vegetable gardens, irrigation works and the provision for water which are being constructed by these detainees. And it is my submission, Mr Speaker, that if you make a man work, you should pay him his full wages - what I call trade union wages, or what you might call economic wages - deducting therefrom the cost of his enforced lodging and the cost of his board. That would be fair. I am glad to hear that it is 30 cents. But you know, Mr Speaker, they do not even have a canteen. They cannot order a cup of coffee. Gangster or no gangster, Sir, if you are trying to attract them to a human way of life, I would suggest a proper approach, and from the point of view of socialists and persons who believe in the trade union movement, I resent the suggestion of using persons detained by executive act as slave labour. I resent the suggestion that we can compel human beings to work at below economic wage and let the Government benefit by it.

7.30 p.m.

I would like to see a canteen for these people from which they can purchase a few of the minor necessities of life. I would like to see opportunities for them to receive their families in the island, so that it does not sound so bad, instead of being brought to some prison in town for the purpose of their fortnightly meetings.

Mr Speaker, the concept is a good one: do not let us spoil it by being mean. I say that they should be paid in full and I say that they should have some human amenities.

On the issue of volunteering, Mr Speaker, the Minister was not completely frank with this House. Perhaps he would like to add that any detainee who does riot volunteer to go to Pulau Senang will not be released by this Government. That is a fact. It is made, I gather, completely clear to those in Changi that if you want to be released, you first apply to go to Pulau Senang. If you are a very good boy there for one year or 15 months, then you go back to Changi for a short period and then you are released. These are matters that have been officially brought to my attention, and I do not think I am in any way misrepresenting them. Sir, if you say to me, "You will be a prisoner for the rest of your life, or else work," and I volunteer to work, need I add that that is a curious concept of volunteering which is peculiar to the P.A.P.? But one other matter, Sir - apart from this volunteering aspect that the Minister has introduced - is that there are some who are not allowed to volunteer. I wonder if I might be permitted to mention it under this heading. That is, the non-Malayan citizens have no hope of over being released, because they are not allowed to volunteer for Pulau Senang. Mr Speaker, it is a very unhappy position we have been reduced to, that Government can, at its pleasure, do more than our Judges and keep a man in prison for longer than his own life Time.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not sure the Government has the power to detain a person for ever. I think there is a limit to the period of detention, I think, to five years. Well, nevertheless, I will check that up.

Mr Speaker, Sir, first the canteen facilities for the detainees. The detainees do have canteen facilities to purchase cigarettes and tobacco, toilet articles, confectionery and groceries. The suggestion by the Member for Anson that the detainees should be able to purchase meals and drinks is, in fact, receiving attention now.

Now, as to the suggestion that the detainees should be allowed to receive their families on the island, this question has been gone into since 1961. There are a number of difficulties quite apart from the difficulty of getting launches to convey the families of these detainees to Pulau Senang Island. There is also the question of security and also the construction of a jetty. Until the jetty is constructed, it is just not possible to make a start and, in fact, if I recollect, we have, since the end of last year, managed to secure a launch for this purpose and we are now just waiting for the completion of the jetty to commence conveying the families of detainees to Pulau Senang. I must emphasise that as far as these detainees are concerned, work is of a voluntary nature, regarded and accepted as part of their training and rehabilitation process. In their case, work has a therapeutic meaning, and wages are a secondary matter. What they receive is regarded as a means to provide them with a few extra amenities of living.

There is the Member for Anson's dispute that their work is voluntary. Sir, I do agree with the Member for Anson that detainees have been told, or it is more or less indicated to them, that if they want to secure their early release, they must go to Pulau Senang. That is accepted. Because how do we assess whether a detainee is fit for release to society? How do we observe whether the detainee has changed his attitude towards society, has decided to reform and to make an honest living if he is given a chance outside? The only way, I suggest, is through the work that he does in Pulau Senang, his behaviour in Pulau Senang; then we can observe whether he has really reformed. Therefore, work is, shall we say, necessary, and, in fact, it is recommended by the ad hoc committee on Pulau Senang scheme - that is, rehabilitation through work.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think there is some political motive. We hear from the Member for Anson that the detainees in Pulau Senang should be paid the rate for the job according to good trade union principles.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson has even gone so far as to suggest that the Government is guilty of employing slave labour in Pulau Senang. May I, with respect, suggest to the Member for Anson that this is completely sanctimonious humbug. Let us view the concept of Pulau Senang in a proper light. This is a scheme to rehabilitate secret society gangsters. It is not a matter of the wicked P.A.P. Government catching innocent people and putting them to do some slave work for the benefit of the P.A.P. or the Government. Now. Sir, let us suppose that the Government is so absurd, so ridiculous, as to accept the proposal of the Member for Anson and pay these detainees in Pulau Senang the rate for a job - let us say, $4.50 for unskilled labour, going to $8.50 for masons, and so on. Surely, he will understand that if this were the case, then there would be a standing invitation to members of the public to join secret societies and thereby to get a remunerative career in Pulau Senang with food and everything thrown in. The purpose of the work that they do is not for the Government to make money out of it. If they rear poultry and collect eggs, the eggs do not come to the Ministers on the breakfast table; the benefit goes back to the detainees in the form of more amenities for them. But the main thing is to impress upon these people that work is creative and is of value to society and to inculcate in these unfortunate young men pride in work and a sense of social responsibility.

There is one matter connected with the scheme which has not been mentioned, that is the follow-up work on detainees in Pulau Senang. After they have had a good record, shown responsibility and leadership, they are given a trial in the Work Brigade camp where I must say that many of them have proved to be very creditable members. The particular camp which graduates of Pulau Senang go to, I think, is the most efficient camp in the Work Brigade.

Mr David Marshall: Mr Speaker, the courteous effort of the Minister for Home Affairs to answer my criticism had, for a moment, made me forget that we were in a Chamber dominated by the P.A.P. I am indebted to the Minister for Finance for his Alibanesque contribution to the debate. The "sanctimonious humbug" of which he speaks is very apt to those who can speak of pride in work being paid 30 cents a day whilst your family starves on social welfare pittances. That is the kind of pride in work that the P.A.P. can speak about. That is the kind of men they say they produce, men who take a sense of social responsibility - whilst their families starve, they sweat at hard labour in the sun with pick and shovel and get paid by this beneficent Government 30 cents a day. Mr Speaker, what kind of self-respect do you think you can build in a human being like that? What kind of attitude do you think you can build in a human being like that towards a society which treats him in that fashion? The Minister for Finance refers to them as secret society gangsters. I would remind him that not one of those men has been convicted by an impartial Judge.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson again expressed great sorrow and sympathy for the families of these detainees in Pulau Senang; he said that they are neglected by society. May I ask him one question? How many hundred dollars does he suggest the Government should pay to the families of these detainees who he says have lost their livelihood as a result of detention?

Mr David Marshall: The answer, Mr Speaker, is that, if their detention is necessary for the welfare of the country according to this Government, their families should be maintained by this Government if they have not been imprisoned by a court. They should be permitted to earn enough to give them self-respect so that they can maintain their families. It is a very simple matter and it is not beyond our means.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: How much?

The Prime Minister: This is all about self-respect, Sir, I must say I spent a rather exciting evening at the Aftercare Association one evening when the Superintendent of Pulau Senang put on a concert with these gentlemen who posed as choir boys, bandmasters, a seven-piece band, iron drums and the rest of it. One of them is quite a maestro. He is better than Walter Mitty, Danny Kaye. All I can tell the Member for Anson is that my experience of these gentlemen is that they are not lacking in aplomb. What they lack is the opportunity to do the right thing for themselves and for society, and perhaps if he would spend some Time giving some patronage to this very deserving Aftercare Association to which other members of the Bar subscribe from time to time, he might help a few to come round the bend. After all, I know it is always his fervent belief that if you can get a man off, he is innocent; but if he is in, well then, that is too bad, because that means he could not pay the lawyer enough to get him off. However, I hope he will make some effort in getting real self-respect into these men because I think they have got good stuff in them. I promise the Member for Tanglin that we will put on Pulau Senang at the next T.V. show and that there will be no P.A.P. symbols on the drums.

7.45 p.m.

The Chairman: Time has expired. Does the Member for Choa Chu Kang wish for a vote?

Mr Ong Chang Sam: I beg to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Time allotted for Head D.56 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the name of Mr Ong Chang Sam, was not proceeded with:

That the sum to be allocated for Head D.56 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 8.

The sum of $221,070 for Head D.56 ordered to stand part of the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1963.

The Chairman: Heads of expenditure undisposed of. They appear in the Summary at page 7 of the Paper. I propose to take those heads of expenditure* en bloc.

Question, "That the sums stated in the summary of totals contained in Paper Cmd. 16 of 1963 for Heads D.16, D.17, D.18, D.58 and D.59 stand part of the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1963", put, and agreed to.

• Following are the heads of expenditure:- Head Title $ D.16 Meteorological Services 37,990 D.17 Postal Services 370,000 D.18 Telecommunications 3,199,980 D.58 Public Works, Non-Recurrent (General) 120,000 D.59 Colonial Developemnt and Welfare Schemes 2,122,227

Question, "That the sum of .517,687,607 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1963 contained in Paper Cmd. 16 of 1963", put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply have come to a certain resolution.

Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $17,687,607 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1963 contained in Paper Cmd. 16 of 1963".

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I beg to move that the Assembly doth agree with the Committee on the said resolution.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution accordingly agreed to.

7.49 p.m.