MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1984 TO 31ST MARCH, 1985

3.20 pm

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply (5th Allotted Day).

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head V (cont) -

Resumption of Debate on Question [16th March, 1984],

"That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VB-02 Object Group 1210 of the Main Estimates."-[Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe].

Question again proposed.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff (Kaki Bukit): ( In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, in the course of my speech on Friday, 17th March, which was interrupted because of the Moment of Interruption, I mentioned the need for MUIS to upgrade its role by providing leadership and charting the course for the Republic's Muslim community to follow. I suggested that the Jawatankuasa Hajah Dakwah (Missionary Activities Committee) should take over, in toto, the organization of religious functions, and that I was also confident that the JHD was capable of organizing the Quran Reading Competition conducted by MUIS.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have an amendment which touches on MUIS.

The Chairman: You are referring to amendment (No. 3). All right.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Mr Speaker, Sir, going through MUIS Annual Report 1982, it is apparent that MUIS has grown from strength to strength at the outset. My congratulations to the President and the members of MUIS for their dedication and effort towards Muslim services in Singapore.

Sir, I have three items on which I wish the Minister to comment and elaborate.

1. Mosque Building Programme

Singapore is one of the few countries, if not the only country, in the world whereby the Muslims, being a member of the minority, has successfully built new mosques with their own contributions. Singapore must also be the only Government in the world which although secular has supported in concrete terms the aspirations of the Muslims in Singapore to build their own mosques and allowing the use of Government infrastructure, namely, the CPF mechanism. This speaks well and clearly demonstrates to the world that the Singapore Government promotes a plural society. This augurs well also for the Muslims and we should be grateful to the Government because, though it is secular in nature, it takes great pains to allow all recognized world religions to be freely practised by its people.

My question is, would the Minister elaborate on its Phase 11 Mosque Building Programme, launched in 1982, which stated that nine new mosques would be built in the new towns? Would he provide us with details, and is he satisfied with the progress of this programme?

2. Tabung Haji

Last year, I mentioned that we should learn from our ASEAN neighbour, Malaysia, about the administration and the possible implementation of the Tabung Haji concept. I understand that the suggestion for MUIS team to have a dialogue and a visit to the Tabung Haji officials in Malaysia was taken up. Would the Minister enlighten the House on the outcome of the visit and discussion?

I hope that some semblance of the Tabung Haji could be implemented in Singapore, much to the benefit of Muslim Singaporeans who would wish to perform the Haj.

3. Mosque Accounts

Sir, I notice that in the report by the Auditor-General on the latest MUIS Annual Report 82, he has stated that the Ministry, after having considered the matter (that is, amending the Act to allow persons appointed by the MUIS instead of the Auditor-General to audit the mosque accounts) has recommended that MUIS look into alternative ways to help the management committees to prepare annual statements of accounts so that these accounts can be submitted to the Auditor-General for auditing.

I must say that this is a forward-looking recommendation, and I am sure that MUIS must have taken up the recommendation. By doing this, MUIS would further strengthen the management committees of mosques in terms of financial management. This is necessary as large amounts of public funds would be involved when more and more mosques are built. Could the Minister elaborate on the steps that have been taken by MUIS to assist and strengthen the management committees in their financial management?

The Chairman: Mr Jabbar, you have an amendment No.4. Would you like to speak now, because this is also on Muslim services?

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar (Radin Mas): ( In Tamil): Mr Speaker, Sir, in discussing the allocation of funds for the current financial year in respect of the Ministry of Social Affairs, I wish to bring the following matters to the Minister's attention.

The maintenance of new mosques built in Singapore has become a difficult problem because there are too many glass panels in the buildings. They may be damaged by the mischief of some children, and this may lead to other problems as well.

It is indeed commendable that the Government has approved even mosques as national monuments. We must bear in mind that they are places of worship, and so they must be kept clean and appear to be attractive.

Let us take the Nagore Durga Mosque at Telok Ayer Street, for instance. It is regrettable that no effort has been made either to paint it or to keep it clean. I wish to bring this to the Minister's attention.

It is indeed praiseworthy that a religious-conscious society is emerging in Singapore. On behalf of the younger generation, I wish to appeal to the Minister to request the private companies to allow Muslims to have a break for prayers on Friday afternoons just as the Civil Service is doing. I hope MUIS will take this up.

Sir, in order that non-Malay Muslims, like the Chinese and Indian Muslims, may be made aware of the activities of MUIS, may I suggest that MUIS use Mandarin and Tamil languages so that it can enlarge its scope of activities. In this context, I wish to seek clarification as to whether any effort will be taken by the Hon. Minister who is in charge of Muslim affairs.

Muslims respect the idea of labelling food items with the words "tanggung halal". However, does the Minister know that there has been an increase in false claims on such food items? I would like to know what steps are being taken by MUIS to prevent such false labelling.

Sir, ours is a secular state. Our Government has opened avenues for all religious groups to prosper. This has been praised by all countries. To look after the religious affairs, our Prime Minister should appoint a Minister because delays may be caused in resolving problems by the Ministry of Social Affairs.

Sir, in accordance with the Government's policy of building a mosque in each constituency, my constituents have got a piece of land from the Government. They have also collected funds, more than what was needed by MUIS. Recently, when the Minister visited my constituency, he even unveiled a signboard bearing the name of the mosque. But that is the only thing that has happened. We are still waiting for the building to come up. I request the Minister to help in this matter.

Next, I wish to speak about an old mosque at Bencoolen Street. The management of that mosque decided to rebuild it and the request was sent through the MUIS representative. It is already two years now. No reply has been received. Is it true that they have approached the Minister? If that is true, may I know what would be the Minister's advice on the rebuilding of that mosque? 3.30 pm

Encik Abbas Abu Amin: ( In Malay): Sir, first of all, I would like to congratulate the Muslim Religious Council of Singapore for its unstinting efforts to funher upgrade the quality of its activities. At the moment, MUIS is not only well-known in the Southeast Asian region but also in Asia-Pacific and West Asia.

Sir, I support the suggestions put up at great length by the hon. Member for Kaki Bukit before the House adjourned on Friday, 16th March. To add to the suggestions referred to, I would like to seek clarification from the Hon. Minister concerned on three points. First, the management of Haj services. As we know, each year thousands of Muslims perform the fifth tenet of Islam and in turn every year we receive feedback from the pilgrims as well as from MUIS welfare officers who accompanied the pilgrims. My question is: what are the difficult problems that the pilgrims often encounter and which have not as yet been resolved? What steps have been taken and will be taken by MUIS on the Sheikhs, Hajis or pilgrim brokers to further enhance their Haj services at the Holy land in Makkah, Arafat, Mina and Madinah?

The second point concerns the Singapore Islamic Centre. The question that I would like to pose regarding this project is: what further developments have taken place in connection with the construction of this Islamic Centre? When can the Centre be utilized by the Muslim community of Singapore?

My third point is on deviationist teaching. I understand that from time to time, MUIS receives reports from the public or organizations concerning the activities of deviationist teaching. I hope the Hon. Minister would comment on the subject of deviationist teaching and on the steps to be taken by MUIS to blunt or check such activities so that it does not spread to the Muslim community in this Republic.

Sir, I hope the Hon. Minister could clarify the three points that I have raised.

The Acting Minister for Social Affairs (Dr Ahmad Mattar): Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to thank hon. Members for their interest in the Muslim Religious Council of Singapore (MUIS) and wanting the Council to improve further in its services to the Muslim community in Singapore.

Hon. Members have raised a number of issues pertaining to MUIS and matters which are of concern to Muslims in Singapore. I shall deal with each of them separately.

Sir, Halal Certificate and Mosque Building Programme seem to be the favourite subjects this year. I shall, first of all, a deal with applications for halal certificate from eating establishments and the procedures adopted by MUIS to process these applications for issue of the certificate. An eating establishment which applies for a halal certificate must first produce proof that the raw ingredients used in the food it prepares are halal. Where necessary, it would also be asked to obtain a test report from either the Department of Scientific Services or from SISIR on the ingredients used to prepare the food. From the test report submitted, the Mufti would be in a better position to say whether or not the ingredients used in the preparation of the food contain elements that are non-halal.

Inspections are made by MUIS officials to ensure that the utensils used to prepare the food for consumption by Muslims are not used to prepare non-halal food, that the food is cooked in a place segregated from the cooking of non-halal food, and that the utensils are washed and stored separately.

I shall now deal with the procedure adopted by MUIS to process applications from factories producing food items with halal label. Again, Sir, the firm applying for a halal certificate for its products must submit to MUIS in support of its application a test report from either the Department of Scientific Services or from SISIR. And again, from the report submitted, the Mufti would be in a better position to say whether or not the ingredients used in the manufacture of the products contain elements that are non-halal.

If the products contain meat, bones and extracts of one kind or another which are derived from animals that can be consumed by Muslims, MUIS has to be satisfied that the animals are slaughtered in accordance with Muslim rites. MUIS has to ascertain that the utensils and implements used to process the products intended for consumption by Muslims are not used to process non-halal products, that they are processed in a place separate from that used to prepare non-halal products and that the utensils and implements used are stored separately.

A halal certificate will be issued only after MUIS officers have inspected the firm and are satisfied that the products are processed in accordance with Muslim rites.

Sir, halal certificates issued by MUIS are not transferable and are renewable annually after a funher inspection has been made. Spot checks are made from time to time by MUIS officers on eating establishments and food factories issued with halal certificates to ensure that they comply with the conditions prescribed by MUIS. Checks are also carried out on eating establishments which are reported to display false or invalid halal certificates or Ditanggung Halal signs. They would be warned against displaying certificates or signs not issued by MUIS.

Mr Speaker, Sir, MUIS realizes that it does not have sufficient manpower to make regular checks on eating establishments which display halal certificates (legitimate or otherwise) or Ditanggung Halal signs, to ensure that they conform to MUIS requirements. It is therefore negotiating with a group of very enthusiastic volunteers who are prepared to help MUIS mount regular checks on the eating establishments concerned. However, as nego- tiations are still going on, it is a little premature at this stage for me to say who these volunteers are.

In the case of manufactured food products carrying halal labels, hon. Members may be pleased to know that if any label is misleading, including halal label, where in fact the labelled food product is not, there are laws which deal with the matter and the case will be referred to the Ministry of the Environment.

The hon. Member for Geylang Serai wants to know whether MUIS will provide advisory or information services to the Muslim public regarding manufactured food items by food factories containing non-halal ingredients. MUIS will, to the best of its ability, provide the services required. But this can only apply to specific items which are brought to its attention. It is not possible for MUIS to advise on all food items containing non-halal ingredients as the number is inexhaustible.

Before I come to the Mosque Building Programme, the other topic which seems to have interested hon. Members is the visit by MUIS officials to the Pilgrims Management and Fund Board or Lembaga Urusan dan Tabung Haji (LUTH) of Malaysia last year. Members have asked for some information on the visit and whether there has been any development arising from it.

Sir, the objectives of the visit were to establish closer rapport with officials of LUTH and to obtain first-hand information on how LUTH dealt with approximately 25,000 Malaysian pilgrims annually at its Haj Complex in Subang. The visit has paved the way for a much closer and more open relationship between MUIS and LUTH officials. Mutual understanding has also been reached to render every assistance possible to each other's Haj pilgrims whenever the need arises.

The closer rapport and cooperation between the medical and welfare officials of MUIS and those of LUTH that had been in existence for some years now have been further strengthened by the visit. MUIS will continue to have exchange of views with LUTH with a view to further upgrading the Haj services for Singapore pilgrims.

The MUIS delegation comprising its President, the Mufti and the Pilgrim Officer, was very impressed by the Haj Complex in Subang which was set up by LUTH for the Malaysian pilgrims. It is the establishment of the Complex that had to a great extent facilitated the handling and processing of such large numbers of pilgrims by LUTH. This is because the Complex, in coordination with the Department of Civil Aviation, virtually functions as an airport terminal including the provision of various facilities for security, immigration, customs and health. Although MUIS has no such complex of its own, it has nonetheless learnt much about the logistics of a Haj exercise from the three-day visit.

The Member for Telok Blangah has suggested whether MUIS would consider setting up a similar scheme for the benefit of Singapore pilgrims. The answer is no, not in the immediate future anyway.

Mr Chairman, Sir, Muslims in Singapore are better off, financially, now than they were years ago. They earn better wages and can afford to save part of their savings for the purpose of Haj. They do so by depositing their savings in the POSB and other banks. Since they are already using the facilities provided by these banks, to establish a Tabung Haji in Singapore will be superfluous.

I shall now turn to the functions of the Fatwa Committee of MUIS which was raised by the Member for Kaki Bukit on Friday. I fully agree with the Member that the Fatwa Committee should be more forward-looking, should anticipate issues that would affect the Muslim community and formulate fatwas or religious rulings for the guidance of Muslims in Singapore. I will see to it that the Fatwa Committee, to the best of its ability, implement the hon. Member's suggestion.

The Member for Kaki Bukit also wants to know whether MUIS has plans to upgrade the standard of religious teaching in the Islamic religious schools or madrasahs in Singapore. Sir, to improve the standard of religious teaching in madrasahs, MUIS together with the Coordinating Committee for New Mosques (LARAS) had organized two upgrading courses for religious teachers. The first course, held from 22nd to 30th November 1982, was attended by 122 participants. In this course, Sir, the emphasis was on teaching methodology. The second course was held from 21st November to 1st December last year. The purpose of this course was to enhance the knowledge of the 145 participants in subjects like "Tauhid" or the Doctrine of Divine Unity, "Fiqh" or Islamic Law, Arabic Language and Islamic History. 3.45 pm

With the assistance of the Council for the Education of Muslim Children (MENDAKI) MUIS is making a comprehensive study of the various aspects of madrasahs in Singapore with a view to implementing sections 81 and 82 of the Administration of Muslim Law Act. A comprehensive working paper on madrasahs in Singapore which include, inter alia, the curricula, salary scales of teachers and recommendations for improving the standard of madrasahs in Singapore, is now being considered by muls.

I shall now come to one of the two favourite subjects this year, and that is, the Mosque Building Programme of MUIS. Sir, the Member for Kaki Bukit has asked for steps taken by MUIS to ensure the maximum use of open spaces in the new mosques built under Phase 11 of the Mosque Building Programme. Sir, it is MUIS' practice to make an overall review of matters relating to the design of new mosques from time to time. The feedback received from members of the Muslim public is given careful consideration when designing new mosques. The main objective is to ensure that, as far as possible, the mosques built meet the requirements of Muslims here. One of the shortcomings identified by MUIS in mosques that have been built so far under the Mosque Building Programme is the less-than-optimum utilization of open spaces. MUIS officials have held a series of meetings with the HDB, who is the architect consultant, to ensure that future mosques should be designed to maximize the use of space without compromising aesthetic considerations or violating building control requirements. This, hon. Members may be pleased to note, has been successfully achieved in the design of Masjid Darut Aman in Kampong Ubi Constituency, the second to be built under Phase 11 of MUIS' Building Programme. Work on this mosque will begin soon.

The Member for Telok Blangah wants to know the number of mosques to be built by MUIS under Phase 11 of the Mosque Building Programme and the location of these mosques. Sir, excluding Masjid EnNaeem in Hougang which was officially opened late last year, eight more mosques will be built under Phase 11 of the Mosque Building Programme of MUIS in the next two to three years. Sites for six of the eight mosques have been allocated to and accepted by MUIS. They are as follows:

(1) Darul Aman at the junction of Jalan Eunos and Changi Road;

(2) Darul Makmur at the junction of Yishun Avenue 7 and Yishun Ring Road;

(3) Almukminin at the junction of Jurong East Central and Jurong East Street 21;

(4) Ar-Raudhah at the junction of Bukit Batok East Avenue 5 and Bukit Batok East Avenue 2;

(5) Al-Amin at the junction of Telok Blangah Way and Telok Blangah Rise; and finally,

(6) Darul Ghufran at Tampines Avenue 2.

As for Masjid Darussalam in Clementi New Town, the sites hitherto offered to MUIS have not been found suitable. MUIS is currently considering a new site offered by the Chief Planner. No site has been found yet for the mosque in Bedok New Town.

With regard to the query raised by the Member for Radin Mas on the construction of the Al-Amin Mosque, if everything goes well, tender for this mosque will be called in the first quarter of 1985, as I have announced it to the Press not so long ago.

The Member for Radin Mas has also observed the predominance of glass panels and glass windows in the new mosques built by MUIS. He is afraid that if vandals try to be destructive and throw stones at these panels and windows, it would cost the Mosque Management Committees money to repair the damages caused. He therefore wants to know whether vandalism will be taken into consideration in the design of mosques in the future.

Sir, in designing a non-air-conditioned building, the architect must satisfy building control requirements for adequate natural lightings and ventilation. Glass panels and glass windows feature prominently in the design of a mosque to allow for maximum natural lighting and ventilation, which help to cut down electricity consumption. This is in line with Government's Energy Conservation Campaign. It has been the happy experience of Mosque Management Committees of the seven mosques completed so far under the Mosque Building Programme of MUIS that cases of persons wilfully breaking glass panels and glass windows are very rare. However, I will convey the views of the Member for Radin Mas to the HDB, the architect consultant to MUIS, and I am sure this matter will be borne in mind by the architects in the design of mosques without compromising the building control standards and the Government's Energy Conservation Campaign.

While still on the subject of mosques, Sir, the Member for Radin Mas has also touched on the subject of repainting of old mosques. Here I would like to stress that as far as old mosques are concerned, and indeed for all the other mosques irrespec- tive of whether they are old or those built under the Mosque Building Programme of MUIS, any repainting to be done will have to be carried out by the respective Mosque Management Committees as and when they find it necessary.

The other subject which has interested hon. Members is the Singapore Islamic Centre to be built by MUIS. Both the Members for Kaki Bukit and Pasir Panjang have asked for the progress made so far in the construction of the proposed Centre. Sir, the proposed Singapore Islamic Centre which was originally planned as a 4-storey structure has been modified to a 7-storey building. The cost of the building is now estimated at S$7 million. The Centre will be a focal point for major "dakwah" activities in Singapore. Building plans have been submitted to the Chief Planner for approval. As soon as clearance is obtained, these plans will then be sent to the Development and Building Control Divisions for consideration. If everything goes on as planned, tenders will be called in June this year and construction work will follow around August/September. It will take about 18 months for the building to be completed. I cannot at this point of time divulge the details of facilities available in the Centre, as MUIS plans to have a Press Conference to launch the project as soon as approval from the relevant authorities has been obtained. My hope is that the Muslim community in Singapore will give this project their support.

On deviant teachings of Islam, Sir, the Member for Pasir Panjang wants to know the number of cases that had been brought to MUIS' attention and the follow-up actions taken by MUIS. Sir, records show that since 1974 there had been 20 written complaints from the Muslim public relating to deviant teachings of Islam. Cases of deviant teachings that were brought to MUIS' attention would first be investigated to ascertain the accuracy of the reports of complaints and also to get more information. In this respect, Sir, MUIS gets the help of Mosque Management Committees and the District Islamic Missionary Committees or better known as the JHDs. These cases would then be referred to the Fatwa Committee for deliberation. Individuals or groups involved in the deviant teachings would be summoned to appear before the Fatwa Committee. The parties concerned would be told of the folly of their ways and would be advised to discontinue the malpractices and return to the Islamic fold. As a follow-up, Sir, MUIS from time to time reminds the Muslim public to be wary of such deviant teachings through statements in the press and MUIS' publications as well as through Friday sermons.

The hon. Member for Pasir Panjang also wants to know the problems encountered by Haj pilgrims last year and the action taken by MUIS to resolve them. Sir, there were three major problems encountered by the Singapore Haj pilgrims last year. First, there were no medical and welfare services provided for pilgrims who went to the Holy City of Madinah first before going to Makkah. About 30% of the total number of Singapore pilgrims fell under this category. So to overcome this problem, MUIS plans to set up a clinic in Madinah for this year's Haj. Second, poor service or treatment provided by some Syehs for the pilgrims in the Holy Land. These reports have been investigated and in those instances where MUIS is satisfied that the complaints were valid, the Syehs concerned who provided poor service to the pilgrims will be barred from participating in this year's pilgrimage. Third, pilgrims were left stranded in two instances at Jeddah International Airport without any seats on flights back to Singapore. MUIS has looked into these episodes and has taken steps to ensure that they will not recur in the future.

On MUIS' publications, Sir, the Member for Radin Mas wants to know if MUIS is prepared to include publications in Chinese and Tamil for the benefit of the non-Malay speaking Muslims. Sir, apart from Malay, English and, to a lesser extent, Tamil and Arabic, have also been used in MUIS's publications. One such publication I can think of at the moment, Sir, is "Fajar Islam" or Dawn of Islam where articles in English, Tamil and Arabic, in addition to those written in Malay, had been featured. Admittedly, no article in Chinese had been published by MUIS. I agree, Sir, that there are not many articles or publications in Tamil from MUIS. This is because there is no one on MUIS' staff at the moment who is conversant with this special area of work. However, cognizance of the fact that many non-Malay speaking Muslims are conversant with the English Language, MUIS has taken steps to introduce more publications in English. These include "Courtesy and Islam" published in 1981 and "Dynamic Functions of Mosques" published in 1982. MUIS has also ventured to translate publications which were published originally in Malay into English. The first of,these translations is on Fasting. Others being translated and will be made available soon are on Prayers and Haj. MUIS has also, as a policy, set aside 25% of the contents of its periodicals "Warita Majlis" and "Fajar Islam" to be written in English. They comprise the editorial, articles and reports on activities carried out by Muslim organizations both locally and abroad. I hope I have, in the process, also replied to the hon. Member for Kaki Bukit who touched on the same subject on Friday.

The Member for Kaki Bukit has also suggested that to enable MUIS to upgrade its services to the Muslim community and to play a more effective role, it should assign the Islamic Missionary Committees (JHDs) to take over the organization of all religious functions. Sir, the suggestion of the hon. Member has, in fact, been implemented by MUIS since 1981. The JHDs have taken over the organization of "Awal Muharram" or Muslim New Year celebrations since 1981. The JHDs have also organized several Prophet Muhammad's Birthday celebrations. In January 1982, for example, the JHDs organized a centralized celebration at the National Stadium. In January 1983 and December 1983 there were decentralized celebrations held in the Bedok, Queenstown, Jurong and Toa Payoh Sports Complexes organized by the JHDs of these zones. 4.00 pm

Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah wants me to elaborate on the action taken by MUIS in its attempt to look into alternative ways to help Mosque Management Committees prepare their annual statements of accounts. In 1983, several meetings were held between the officials of the Audit Department, the Ministry of Social Affairs and MUIS to see how MUIS could take steps to ensure that all mosques in Singapore kept proper statements of accounts so that these could be audited by the Auditor-General annually. Officials of the Auditor-General's Office understand that in view of the limitations in manpower and funds, it would not be possible for MUIS to help Mosque Management Committees of all the mosques to prepare acceptable statements of accounts for audit by the Auditor-General in one year, The Auditor-General has agreed to MUIS' suggestion that the programme be implemented in phases.

For the year 1984 it was agreed that MUIS would assist the Mosque Management Committees of 15 selected mosques to prepare proper statements of accounts for audit, and MUIS hopes to increase the number of mosque accounts to be audited by the Auditor-General over the years so that eventually the statements of accounts of all mosques can be presented for annual auditing by the Auditor-General.

The Member for Radin Mas wants to know whether there had been a written request to MUIS made by the Bencoolen Street Mosque Management Committee to renovate or to rebuild the mosque in question about two years ago. My answer to him is no, Sir. MUIS has not received any written request - not two years, not even five years ago. I am referring to written requests, not verbal requests. There has been no record to show that a wriften request has been made by the Management Committee of the mosque concerned to MUIS and no one from the committee has approached me either.

Sir, I think I have answered all the points raised by hon. Members.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: ( In Malay): Sir, I would like to thank the Minister for the comprehensive replies that he has given, which are most satisfactory. I would like to say that I am confident that under the leadership of MUIS, the Muslim community will continue to achieve social and economic progress which they can be proud of.

To elaborate on my proposal regarding the Jawatankuasa Haiah Dakwah (Missionary Activities Committee), I am aware that the JHD is already organizing the celebrations of the Birth Anniversary of our Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him) and Awal Muharam (Muslim New Year). I would like to suggest that the JHD should also be given the opportunity to organize the Berzanji Reading Competition, Quran Reading Competition and the Nasyid Competition at the district and national level with the full cooperation of the area Muslim organizations and the Mosque committees which had previously successfully organized such competitions.

With regard to Tabung Haji, I am gratified to learn that MUIS will give further in-depth consideration to this matter before making a decision to set up the Tabung Haji. Nevertheless, I would like to state here that many Muslims in our Republic hope that the Tabung Haji could be set up. According to a newspaper report, several Singaporean Muslims have registered themselves to perform the Haj pilgrimage through the Tabung Haji or LUTH in Johore. Does this indicate that our people have greater confidence in LUTH than what they can get in our own country? Could the Minister clarify on the changes, if any, or additions or progress that will be done by MUIS to further improve the Haj services this year?

Encik Abbas Abu Amin (in Malay): Sir, it was mentioned a while ago that one of the problems encountered by the Haj pilgrims last year was when a sizable number of pilgrims were stranded at Jeddah airport and experienced various difficulties. I seek further clarification as to why a basic matter such as this could have occurred, and this is a source of anxiety to prospective Haj pilgrims who will perform the Haj pilgrimage this year if this problem could not be resolved.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I would take note of the suggestion by the Member for Kaki Bukit that we should widen the responsibilities of JHDs in the organization of Islamic events in Singapore.

With regard to why pilgrims from Singapore have registered with LUTH in Malaysia to go on pilgrimage, this is a reciprocal arrangement. MUIS also receives Malaysian pilgrims who have been given permission by LUTH to go with MUIS because they have relatives in Singapore. This is a reciprocal arrangement which we allow from time to time, for Muslim pilgrims in Singapore to go with their relatives in Malaysia if they want to just as LUTH allows Malaysian pilgrims with relatives in Singapore to go to the pilgrimage with MUIS.

The Member for Pasir Panjang wants to know the causes for the pilgrims to be stranded in Jeddah International Airport. It arose from a misunderstanding between the officers of Saudi Arabian Airline at Jeddah International Airport and the Syehs handling the pilgrims' departure over the re-confirmation of air tickets before the departure. As a problem of this nature would take some time before it could be resolved, the pilgrims concerned therefore missed their scheduled flights to Singapore. Nonetheless, I have received reports that they were well looked after by officers of the airline until they were put on the first available flight to Singapore, I would like to say that our Embassy in Jeddah and also the Saudi Embassy here in Singapore should be commended for the assistance they rendered in resolving this problem. As I said, we hope that this incident will not recur in future.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I thank the Minister for his comprehensive answers and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam (Anson): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-02 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, this vote is for the Welfare Services for the Aged, Vagrant arid other Destitute Persons. I have been in this House for two years now, and this is the third Budget session in which I have taken part, and I have raised this question year after year in this House. It appears, Sir, that at these Budget sittings we bring up subjects and particularly subjects like looking after the elderly, the sick, the vagrant, for an airing. The files are dusted and given to the Minister to reply, and then they are put away and nothing seems to be done. And things continue in much the same way as they did in the past.

Sir, I raised sometime - was it last year or the first year that I was here - the question of sufficiency of homes for the elderly and particularly those who are non-ambulant, the bedridden patients, and then the Minister quoted a number of figures to show that I was wrong, that there was no waiting list and, in fact, there were enough homes. Sir, I have in my constituency a Muslim man who should really be in a home. He is living with his daughter and her family, and there are other members of the family, living in this flat, and they experience considerable difficulty in looking after him. He sleeps outside the flat, in the corridor, and every time I pass the flat I get pleas for help from him. I have approached a number of homes and the difficulty I find is that a number of these homes say, "It is very difficult to take him, a Muslim man, because of the catering difficulties."

He is not the only one. There are others in my constituency who should really be in homes. It is not just that they should be in homes but it is also the wish of the families who help to look after them. They are not getting anything like the assistance that they should get from this Government. We have constantly heard sermons preached about the duty that is owed to the elderly by their children and their grandchildren. But the Government would appear to take the view that its task stops with that - delivering sermons to the children and grandchildren.

Last year I read one or two letters and I have got another letter this year. This goes back to 30th May 1983, and this appeared in the Straits Times. A working girl writes about her difficulties and the problems she has in looking after her grandmother and she says; "As the government is so concerned [it must have been said with her tongue in her cheek] about our aging society, I would like to mention the case of my 73-year old grandmother living with me. There are only the two of us and I am working. I need someone to help - cook her meals and bathe her." That is the sort of assistance that a lot of people do need when they have elderly people to look after. And she says; "i sought assistance from the Ministry of Social Affairs but was told that it does not run any scheme whereby a social worker or volunteer would spend two hours daily to look after elderly people like my grandmother."

She goes on to talk about her difficulties - that she is staying in Jurong and the nearest and only day-care centre for the elderly is in Henderson Road. She ends up by saying; "In order to help this group of aged remain with their families and not to be placed in old folks homes, could the Ministry set up more day-care centres for the elderly in every constituency, if possible. Alternatively, it could start an 'adopt an elderly' scheme similar to its 'adopt a child' scheme."

I have only brought up one of these letters that appear from time to time in our papers. 4.15 pm

May I know from the Minister what is the position? Does he still say that there are far more beds than needed for the bed-ridden people in Singapore whose families find it a great burden to look after in their homes? If so, I would like to know, why is it that this man that I have in my constituency has not been able to be placed in a home? I say that there are others as well in my constituency who should really be in homes.

If the Ministry's view is that the place for elderly people is not in homes for the aged and the sick but with their families, what plans has the Ministry got? I asked this last year, and I ask this again. No doubt, I may be told that I keep bringing up the same thing. But I will continue to bring it up until we get some response from the Ministry of Social Affairs and from this Government.

What schemes? - as the writer to the press asked. I do not know whether there was a reply to this letter. I want to know whether the Ministry has any plans or any thinking about assisting families to look after the elderly and the sick. I am, of course, referring to the non-ambulant patients in particular, those who are bed-ridden and, as she says, "who cannot look after themselves." What happens to them when the working members of the family have to go out to work? May I know from the Minister whether there has been any improvement? Has anything been done along the lines requested by this writer to the press? Perhaps he would answer that and then I might come back with something else.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to deal with the specific problem faced by the Muslim man who the Member for Anson claims to be his constituent. He has also claimed to have approached a number of voluntary organizations running such homes, and the answer so far is that it is difficult for them to accommodate this particular patient because of dietary restrictions. I would like to assure the Member for Anson that he can refer that case to me on one condition, that the person concerned must be a constituent of Anson Constituency and that he is a Singapore citizen.

As far as sufficiency of places in Homes for the Aged is concerned, what I said in last year's Budget, and I believe the Budget before that, was that we have a surplus of places in Homes for the Aged, and that is why we are not encouraging organizations to set up more Homes for the Aged lest these homes will become dumping grounds. But we are certainly short of Homes for the Aged Sick. I think the problem still remains today.

There are now, Sir, two hospital wards, one in Tan Tock Seng Hospital and the other in Woodbridge Hospital, for the chronic sick, run by the Government with a total capacity of 150 beds. In addition, there are three Homes for the Aged Sick run by the Society for the Aged Sick, the Sree Narayana Mission and the Franciscan Nuns, with a total capacity of 570 beds.

I agree that the total capacity so far we have today is not sufficient to cater to the needs of the aged sick that we have in Singapore and that is why the Ministry of Social Affairs has been calling voluntary organizations to set up more homes for the aged sick. In response to a call by the Ministry, the following voluntary charitable organizations are planning or have started to provide institutional care for the aged sick: -

The Phor Kar See Evergreen Home: They have already set up a home with a capacity of 100 beds for the aged sick. I believe the home is in operation now. Then we have the Bible Presbyterian Welfare Services. They too, I believe, have started the Ling Kwang Home for senior citizens. This home has 50 beds for the aged sick. Next, we have the Methodist Welfare Services with a Home for the Aged Sick at St. George's Road, with 40 beds. The Lions Club of Singapore plans to run a Home for the Aged Sick in Toa Payoh Rise for 100 persons with plans for future expansion. The Singapore Buddhist Welfare Services is building what they call the "Grace Lodge" which is scheduled for completion sometime this year. This home will have 50 beds for the aged sick. Then we have the Salvation Army which has begun to accept the aged sick cases into its Lee Kuo Chuan Home for the Aged.

What I said last year was that we had a surplus of places for homes for the aged, but we are certainly short of places for homes for the aged sick. This is the reason why we are appealing to voluntary organizations to set up more homes for the aged sick.

The Chairman: Are you withdrawing your amendment?

Mr Jeyaretnam: No, Sir. I would like the Minister to answer the second part of my question, that is, about any, what you might call, supportive services. I see that he has remained completely silent on this matter. Has the Ministry any plans on this?

Going back to the first part, I understand from the Minister that there is a shortage and he has appealed. Then he goes on to tell us about a number of private charitable bodies providing homes. Is there still a shortage, or will there still be a shortage with the provision of beds by these organizations?

But a more important thing is, does the Ministry really think that all it has to do when it comes to the care of the elderly sick is to appeal to private charity and that the Ministry itself, the Government, has no obligation, no responsibility for the elderly sick in our society but that they must be left to private charity? Why is it? Is it because we cannot afford to look after them that we must ask private charity to foot the bill for them? We would appear to have $11 million to spend on celebrations from June to December of this year. Cannot we afford some of that money to look after our elderly sick? I would like to know what role the Ministry thinks it has in the discharge of Government's responsibility in its citizens, particularly the elderly sick.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Speaker, Sir, as far as the supportive services are concerned, as the Member for Anson and Members of the House are aware, there is a Committee on the Problems of the Aged chaired by my colleague, the Minister for Health. He will be presenting the report of the Committee to Parliament soon. It is premature for me at this stage to disclose what recommendations he will be making as far as the aged is concerned.

The Member for Anson, as usual, has come up with a smear on the Government. He says that the Government only knows how to appeal to voluntary organizations, that it does not do anything on its own for the aged, although it can spend $11 million on National Celebrations.

Sir, at present there are some 1,200 elderly persons, mostly with no families in Singapore, living in Government welfare homes. The two hospitals which I mentioned just now, the Tan Tock Seng Hospital and Woodbridge Hospital, provide chronic sick wards to accommodate the invalid aged who could not be taken care of in their own homes. Then we have the Home Nursing Foundation which was established by the Ministry of Health to provide nursing care for the chronic sick in their homes.

The Government has been actively promoting community participation in the provision of services for the aged. This is in line with the Government's philosophy on care for the aged, that is, we should adopt an integrated approach in the provisions of care for the aged. This calls for participation from the family, from the community and from the State. These services are rendered in the form of residential care, day-care, befriender scheme and recreational activities. At present, there are about 4,000 beds available for accommodating the aged and destitutes in Government welfare homes, hospitals and residential homes.

If I may stress once again, Sir, the Government, through the Ministry of Social Affairs, has adopted an integrated approach in the provisions of care for the aged. That is why we are asking for the participation of the family, the community and the State. So it is not true to say that the Government is not doing anything.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, may I have a direct answer to my question? We are at the moment concentrating, I thought, on the aged sick, and the Minister said that there was definitely a shortage. He said that the Ministry had appealed and a number of charitable bodies were responding. May I ask a direct question? Has the Ministry any plans to set up a home, a Government home, for the aged sick?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, the answer is no, not in the immediate future. 4.30 pm

Mr Jeyaretnam: May I know why? What are the problems?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Because with the developments I have mentioned just now, there will be sufficient beds in the pipeline to meet the increase in demand up to 1985.

Mr Jeyaretnam: In other words, we have the Acting Minister say to this House, as he has said year in and year out, that the Government has no responsibility.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Culture (Mr S. Dhanabalan): Don't you understand English?

Mr Jeyaretnam: All that the Government thinks is that its role is to appeal to private charity and talk about Government joining community efforts to look after the sick and the aged. I say this is scandalous.

Mr Speaker, Sir, with that, I will withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-03 of the Main Estimates.

This is the vote for Welfare Services for Physically and Mentally Disabled Persons. Again, may I preface whatever I have to say by saying, I made this plea not only last year but the year before on behalf of the physically and mentally disabled persons.

Sir, following upon the Minister's reply to the last amendment, that his Ministry had appealed to private charitable bodies to help look after the elderly sick and that they were responding, I would like to refer to a report again in one of our papers that appeared on the 25th February 1984, not very long ago. And the report mentioned about the Minister attending an exhibition. He was at hand to open an exhibition on Towards a Better Understanding of the Physically Handicapped. Perhaps he did not expect this when he went to cut the ribbon or whatever he was going to do at the opening of this exhibition. There was a man on a wheelchair and he handed him a letter. His concern was that the MRT was not making any provision for those on wheelchairs and so he wanted the Minister to do something about it, and he gave the Minister a letter. The report says that the Minister promised to deliver the note to the MRT Corporation.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we have had Ministers going round as inspectors of latrines and now we have got a Minister who is taking on the duty of a messenger boy. I would say seriously to Ministers that their duties go far beyond acting as messenger boys and inspectors of latrines. We have others to do that. That report sort of sums up again the attitude displayed by the Minister in his last reply. He says, "We have appealed to the private charitable bodies and they are coming up with these beds. We are not going to build any homes. Why should we?" I do not know what the problems are. Perhaps we have not got the money.

The report again focuses attention on what this Government is doing. He went to an exhibition about Towards a Better Understanding of the Problems of the Physically Handicapped, I was glad to see, Mr Speaker, Sir, in that speech he again mentioned that a committee had been appointed. Oh, we have got several committees to look into this matter, that matter, lots of matters. He said that a committee had been appointed for the implementation of the recommendations in the International Year of the Disabled Persons Report, 1981. And this is 1984, Mr Speaker, three years afterwards. May I know whether this committee has submitted any report? He said one of the issues that the Committee was looking into is the problem of employment of disabled persons. Honestly, do we really need the recommendations of this body, the International Year of Disabled Persons, before we start looking into the problems of employment of disabled persons?

And he goes on to say, "We need to formulate a policy which is realistic and practical to implement and generally acceptable to the organizations helping disabled people and, of course, acceptable to disabled people themselves." Mr Speaker, Sir, may I say with respect that is a lot of verbiage. It says nothing about what the Ministry is doing. It talks about appointment of a committee. We need to do this, we need to do that, we need to do everything. Yes, we know all that. But what are you doing now?

Mr Dhanabalan: For the mentally disturbed?

Mr Jeyaretnam: I spoke over the last two years about the school for the deaf in Singapore and I mentioned about the appalling lack of equipment in these classes. I was talking to the Executive Director this morning and he says the position is just as bad as it was two years ago. What progress are we making? He says there is no class with a group hearing aid system. They have 19 classes, 19 teachers. He says the teacher problem has eased a little bit because there are less pupils this year. That is why it has eased a bit. But he says there is not a single classroom which has got a group hearing aid system. Why? Is it b"We cannot afford. We have not got the money to help these children."

Last year, I asked about the teachers who were supplied, the specialist teachers, not just ordinary teachers but teachers who had special training to teach disabled children. And we heard then from the Minister of State of Education about a course that was being considered. He said something about there being a question whether it should be a full certificate or something less than a full certificate. I would like to know from him if it is possible, what is the situation now. This training of teachers, which I saw started in Singapore some two or three months ago; are these teachers who have gone through the Normal course going on to specialize in teaching the mentally and physically disabled children? I think, Mr Speaker, Sir, that it is time, I said this last year and I say it again, that this Government accepted the responsibility for the education of these children. It is not that they cannot be educated. I said this last year. They can be educated. So why is the Government shirking its responsibility?

The Chairman: Your time is up, Mr Jeyaretnam.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Speaker, Sir, the way the Member for Anson has been talking for the last 10 minutes would give one the impression that the PAP Government has done nothing for the disabled in the last 25 years. And I would like to take this opportunity to inform him what the Government, through the Ministry of Social Affairs, has done for the welfare of the disabled persons.

The Government provides direct as well as indirect services. I shall deal with the direCt services first. The Ministry of Social Affairs provides annual block grants and per capita grants to nine voluntary welfare organizations dealing with disabled persons to meet their recurrent expenditure, Eight of these voluntary organizations receive annual block grants and they are the Singapore Association for the Deaf, Singapore Association for Retarded Children, Society for Aid to the Paralyzed, Spastic Children's Association of Singapore, Singapore Association for Mental Health, Association for Educationally Subnormal Children, Singapore Cheshire Home, and the Vocational Assessment and Placement Centre of the Singapore Council of Social Service. The Singapore Association for the Blind also receives per capita grant per head per day.

The Ministry has also been providing instructors to the Singapore Association for the Blind and the Singapore Association for the Deaf in addition to the block and per capita grants mentioned earlier.

With regard to the details on the Singapore School for the Deaf which the Member for Anson has touched on, my colleague, the Minister of State of Education, has agreed to reply to him.

Sir, the Ministry also provides welfare services to disabled persons of all ages and their families. These welfare services include individual and family counselling, financial assistance and referral services for the disabled. For FYs 82 and 83 alone, a total of 903 disabled persons and their families were given various forms of supportive help. 4.45 pm

Now, let me deal with employment of disabled persons. Contrary to our earlier belief, Sir, a large number of disabled persons are in gainful employment. A survey of 5,570 disabled persons revealed that about 51% of them had CPF contributions credited to them. These people have been found jobs through the combined efforts of the Ministry of Social Affairs and the Ministry of Labour. My Ministry, Sir, has an incentive scheme for employers to accept the disabled into the workforce. Under the scheme the employer is reimbursed for the first 1 1/2 months' salary paid by him to the disabled whom he has employed. Transport and meal allowances are also provided under this scheme for the disabled employee during the first two weeks of his employment. This is to sustain him in his employment until he gets his first pay packet. The Ministry of Labour also manages the Disablement Resettlement Scheme. This Scheme assists disabled persons to gain economic independence through on-the-job training, and during the period of training they receive a monthly allowance of $150 from the Ministry. In addition they also receive a monthly allowance of $60 from their employer. Disabled persons who have enrolled themselves in commercial schools also receive the monthly allowance of $150. In addition they are also entitled to free tuition fees and textbooks.

Now I shall come to the indirect services. First, the maintenance of a Central Registry of Disabled People. Now the aims of this Registry, Sir, are two-fold. Firstly, to function as a central statistical source of reference for organizations providing services to disabled people and, secondly, to provide disability profiles so as to facilitate planning and provision of services for disabled people. With the establishment of this Registry, we know that there are about 12,000 disabled persons today on record. The Ministry is in the process of updating the particulars of these registered disabled persons, and so far we have been able to update the particulars of 8,848 of them. We have found that 421 of them had either passed away or left the Republic.

Then he mentioned about this wheel-bound person who met me at the exhibition at Lucky Plaza. True, he handed me a letter of appeal to the MRTC to consider provisions for handicapped persons like himself. I think the MRTC has given a reply to such requests and it has been very widely publicized by the local press. When the MRTC said that they were not going to include provisions for the handicapped, I think they were doing it with the welfare of the handicapped at heart, because in case of a calamity, the handicapped trapped in the MRT stations would be the victims of the calamity. So I think the MRTC having taken these into considerations have therefore decided not to provide special provisions for the handicapped in order to minimize risk on them. Arising from this, a Committee on Barrier-Free Environment for the Aged and Disabled in Our Land Communication Systems has been set up to consider what alternatives or what measures to be taken so that handicapped people, if they cannot make use of the MRT can at least make use of our land transportation system. The Committee's report is in the final stage of preparation.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I have a number of questions for the Minister. I asked, and I was primarily concerned with the question of education, why is the Government not taking over the education of these children? I suppose I have to wait for the Minister of State of Education to reply to that.

If I may move away from that now to the next question. Has the Minister or his Ministry looked into this question of arrangements for the handicapped on the MRT system? The Minister surely must be aware that there have been letters in the press which suggest that they can use the MRT quite safely, provided certain adaptations are made. Is the matter just left to the MRT to decide, or is the Ministry taking a hand in this and looking into the problem? Should not the views of those who know about this be sought and of the experience in other countries where they have had these problems? Should we not learn from their experience? Or does the Minister, again I must repeat, consider that his sole function is to act as a messenger boy to deliver the letter to the MRT and leave them to tackle the problem, and the Ministry of Social Affairs, which has a special concern for the handicapped, or the disabled, has nothing to say on it?

Finally, what about the report from the Committee which he said he has appointed as a result of the 1981 Report on the International Year for the Disabled? What have they come up with? Or are they still deliberating after three years in trying to understand the problems of the disabled in Singapore?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I have a strong suspicion that whenever a Minister gives a reply, the Member for Anson is not listening. I have said that the MRTC made a decision not to provide provisions for the handicapped so that in case of calamities (not that we want calamities but should there be one) they would not be victims of the calamity. As a result of that, we have appointed a Committee on Barrier-free Environment for the Aged and Disabled in Our Land Communication Systems. And, of course, consultations were held between the MRTC and the Ministry of Social Affairs and the relevant Ministries concerned. And we fully agree with the views of the MRTC. As I said, they arrived at this decision with the interest and the welfare of the handicapped, the disabled and the aged at heart. He asked, "What about the other countries? Why can't we learn from them?" Hong Kong does not have provision for the disabled in the MRT. Have I answered your question?

Mr Jeyaretnam: No.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: He can never be satisfied.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, the Minister says they have gone into this problem. Have they made public the deliberations, the considerations, that were placed before this Committee that looked into this question? If so, can that be made public so that the public may see what the problems are?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: I thought by answering his question in this Chamber, I have made it public already.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, what the Minister has done is to state the conclusions. What I want to know is, may we know what were the considerations put forward from both sides to this question, is it possible for the handicapped to use the MRT? There are those who argue that it is quite safe for them to use the MRT. Can we have the whole case presented in public?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, no one says that they cannot make use of the MRT. If somebody is willing to bring a handicapped or wheel-chair bound person down into the tube station, he can make use of the MRT. When the MRTC says that they are not making provision for the disabled or the handicapped, it does not mean that they are barring them from using. They can, but they are not providing special facilities for them. As I said, they do this with the interest and welfare of the disabled persons at heart.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, it must be obvious, perhaps it is only to me, that some modifications have to be made. I mean if you are going to allow wheel-chairs to go into carriages, there is some son of modification that the MRT must make to one or two carriages, They probably cannot have the normal kind of seats there. That is the thing we want to know. Is the MRT prepared to do that? I am not asking the MRT to arrange for them to be brought to the MRT stations. No one is asking that.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, we are debating the Budget of the Ministry of Social Affairs. If he wants to discuss technical aspects. of the MRT, how the tube is constructed, how the coaches are going to be designed, I suggest he raises them in the Committee of Supply on the Ministry of Communications.

The Chairman: Are you withdrawing your amendment?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, we are talking about a particular class of people for whom the Minister has special responsibility. So I do not think he should just pass the buck, as it were, to somebody else, because this is his concern.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I am not passing the buck. He asked me a question whether there will be special provision so that the handicapped can go into the trains. And I said that these are technical details. He can raise them when we debate the Ministry of Communications' budget.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I thought we were going to hear from the Minister of State of Education about the education of the children.

The Chairman: I am not going to hear.

Mr Jeyaretnam: The Minister said that he has asked his colleague, the Minister of State of Education, to answer that.

The Chairman: Are you really going to answer that, Dr Tay? There is no need for you to answer if you do not want to.

The Minister of State of Education (Dr Tay Eng Soon): Mr Speaker, Sir, I must have your permission before I speak because this is not really my budget. He should have spoken up at the budget debate last Tuesday when he had the full opportunity to do so.

The Chairman: All right then. Are you going to withdraw your amendment, Mr Jeyaretnam?

Mr Jeyaretnam: No, Sir.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The following amendment, standing in the name of Encik Saidi Haji Shariff, has been withdrawn.

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VD-01 of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $37,388,500 for Head V ordered w stand part of the Main Estimates,

The sum of $2,430,000 for Head V ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I think probably it is a good idea to have a break at this stage.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 5.30 pm.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.00 pm until 5.30 pm. Sitting resumed at 5.30 pm.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head I -

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan (Whampoa): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IA-01 Object Group 1100 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, from time to time motorists in Singapore find themselves with higher road and vehicle registration taxes and people are blaming the Government for being greedy, for wanting more revenue. Indeed if one were to look at the 1984 revenue estimates for road taxes, special tax on heavy oil engine and ad valorem registration fees, we find a projection of $840.6 million to be collected this year. Against this very enormous amount of revenue, the actual expenditure on the road programme as budgeted by the Ministry of National Development for this year totals only $292 million. One could add the $9.7 million to be spent by the Land Transport programme of the Ministry of Communications. But what is obvious from these figures is that the revenue is far in excess of the actual expenditure on roads and the facilities to enable vehicles to travel safely.

The question is: Is the Government using the taxes on vehicles as a revenue-raising device, or is it to restrict the num- ber of vehicles on the road? If the first is the objective, then the Government would appear to be eminently successful and also eminently successful in getting motorists to be angry. If the second objective is the real one, then the Ministry appears to be less successful than it would wish or that it intended. I say this not without any grounds. In fact, I can quote from a letter written by Mr Han Fook Kwang, representing the Permanent Secretary (Communications). This is a letter which appeared in the Singapore Monitor on 9th November, 1983, and I quote:

The acceleration in the car population during the last four years was because we did not increase ARF and road taxes to maintain the real cost of owning and maintaining motor cars relative to the growing disposable income of our population.'

What is quite clear is that there appears to be a race between higher taxes and the number of vehicles that appear on our roads. I would like to point to a number of observations that might help to determine the nature of this problem.

First of all, there appears to be little difference now between the price that one pays for a motor vehicle, whether one uses the PARF concession or one pays the full ARF price. So the PARF scheme appears to no longer have a restrictive effect as originally intended. Members might know that the PARF scheme requires a motorist to get rid of one old vehicle in order to purchase a new one. Secondly, people who cannot afford higher capacity cars have been switching to lower capacity cars and we certainly have witnessed this in terms of the number of smaller capacity cars on the road. Thirdly, people who cannot afford new cars have been buying second-hand cars and that is one explanation why the number of cars on the roads has been increasing. Fourthly, people have been buying second-hand company regis- tered cars until this was stopped recently. That appeared to be another loophole that had to be dealt with. Fifthly, Government departments and statutory boards encourage officers to buy cars with generous loans at 5% rate of interest.

The sixth observation is that we have had the vehicle inspection programme now for some time. The question is: Has this programme resulted in more older vehicles being kept on the road that might have been the case otherwise? The previous policy was to tax older cars, i.e. cars above 10 years old. There was a surcharge on the road tax each year and I thought that had a deterrent effect on the older vehicles.

The seventh point. People who could not afford to buy cars began to buy vehicles like panel vans and goods vehicles but again there was a move recently to try and restrict the purchase of panel vans.

The eighth point. This has been voiced in the papers. There appears to be no restriction whatsoever on finance companies on the loans to purchase motor vehicles. I am not persuaded by the answers given by the Ministry in this regard to the effect that there is a substitution effect - that if you do not allow the loans on motor cars, they will take up loans on TVs and other home appliances and then save up their money to buy motor cars. I think home appliances do not cost a tenth or even a hundredth as much as motor vehicles. So I do not think that argument holds.

I would like to propose to the Minister that as long as people in Singapore recognize that there is a need to restrict the number of motor vehicles in Singapore then the price they should pay for each car, inclusive of taxes, must be rising over the years. But then why does the Government take the blame on itself by raising the car taxes from time to time? Why not do it this way? Why not fix an absolute maximum number of vehicles and say that beyond this number, every new vehicle would have to have one old vehicle scrapped in order for it to be put on the road. This, of course, would raise the prices of scrapped cars but then the market would take care of itself and no one then would point an accusing finger at the Government that the Government is just greedy for revenue and unduly penalizing motorists.

The Acting Minister for Communications (Dr Yeo Ning Hong): Sir, let me thank the Member for Whampoa for his very many points. My Ministry has over the past few months been round to the various community groups and community leaders as well as Members of Parliament to discuss this matter of road transportation with as wide a spectrum of people in Singapore as possible. We have received a lot of suggestions from community leaders, CCC members, Members of Parliament, people from community centres, Residents Committees and the lot. I want to take this opportunity of thanking them again for the very many suggestions that they have come forward with.

My Ministry has set up a committee to look into the whole problem of (and transportation. As the Member for Whampoa has rightly pointed out, we need to restrict the number of cars. We have a limited amount of land. We need to reserve land for building flats, for our children and for our children's children. There is that much that we can do, given a fixed amount of roads. My Ministry has given a lot of data to members of the public over the last three months demonstrating how intensively we are using the roads that we already have. We have also provided data to show that as a country we have the largest amount of road relative to the amount of land available for the population.

Sir, it is not worthwhile looking at individual suggestions as and when they appear because that would not provide us with the son of solution that we need. What we need is a comprehensive approach to the total problem and this is what my Ministry is currently doing.

Sir, on 3rd March, 1984 - many of us may still remember - we had one of the worst traffic jams in Singapore in recent years. This was the result of floods and seven major roads were closed. This is a preview given by nature to us of what can happen in Singapore if we do not restrain the number of cars coming on to our roads. If we add 20%, or slightly more, of vehicles on to the roads, the situation that we saw on the morning of Saturday, 3rd March, may be a daily occurrence and this is what we, as a nation, as a people, must work towards preventing it.

Sir, the Member has a number of suggestions which I would like to bring back for my Ministry to consider and to, add to the very long list that we already have. There is the suggestion of letting the market decide on the price and road tax of a car. Being an economist, I am sure he has thought this matter through and we would like to consider that point in the light of all other factors that are already being considered.

Currently, we are looking at the problem from at least four different angles. Firstly, we are looking at how to improve public transportation - how to improve the bus service, the taxi service, private buses and eventually with the coming of the MRT how it can dovetail into all the other public transportation systems currently available. We are also looking into traffic management - whether there are more bus lanes that we can draw to permit the buses which carry the bulk of our people to travel a little faster, a little more conveniently. We are also looking into possibilities of computerizing more and more of the traffic junctions that we already have. We are also looking at car parks -the provision of car parks, the pricing of car parks in such a way that we distribute evenly the population of cars and vehicles such that we do not create undue congestions at certain specific locations. And we are also, of course, looking at the management of vehicle population in toto.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I welcome this comprehensive review of the road transport system mentioned by the Minister, Maybe I would just like to add one more suggestion which I forgot just now and, that is, that from time to time vehicles break down on our roads and even on our expressways. And one Minister mentioned the other day that all it takes is one vehicle to break down in one lane for a huge traffic jam to build up. Could we not impose hefty fines on any vehicle that breaks down on the road, and the bigger the vehicle the bigger the fine?

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, the problem of vehicles breaking down has been a serious problem in the past but with the introduction of vehicle inspection this has become less serious. However, I will consider the Member's suggestion.

Dr Augustine Tan: I hope he will give due consideration because there are still plenty of cars that have got punctures or vehicles' tyres get blown up or they break down for some other reason. Anyway, Sir, I thank the Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Mr Chai Chong Yii: (2) That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IA-01 Object Group 1210 of the Main Estimates.

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IA-02 of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (2), Mr Chai Chong Yii is not here. Dr Augustine Tan, amendment No. (3).

Dr Augustine Tan: I am not moving, Sir.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IC-01 of the main Estimates.

Sir, last week, the Straits Times, 15th March, 1984, reported on its back page with bold heading, "Two die as car hits tree". I am most concerned. This is the third instance in the past six months in which a car has split into two. I note that the Minister mentioned in Parliament after the last two car splits that investigation has been done and the cars had met with the safety standards.

It is too much of a coincidence that here we have a similar car, of Japanese make, which again split. But this time the driver and passengers were not that fortunate. I would urge the Minister to take strong action to ensure that more stringent safety standards are imposed. He last said that it was because of the relative velocity of above 100 km per hour that caused the shearing and tearing of the car. Surely the relative velocity of two cars travelling in opposite direction on an expressway would be much more than 100 km per hour. Are we to expect a few more car splits before very stern action is taken? Certainly not, and knowing that the Minister is a man of action, he would act swiftly and judiciously.

Sir, the other point is about traffic jam along Telok Blangah Road. The World Trade Centre in my Constituency is becoming increasingly popular with seminars and exhibitions. When there is such a function or both seminars and exhibitions together on the same day, the traffic is extremely heavy. A case in point was the 2nd Productivity Lecture organized by the National Productivity Board. It was obviously counter productive when you have over 100 cars lining up and causing a traffic jam at every entrance to the World Trade Centre car parks. This would also cause hazards to the many people who wanted to cross Telok Blangah Road to either take public transport or to go to Sentosa in front of the World Trade Centre. This situation is especially more serious when the seminar or the exhibition ends and every motorist wants to rush back to continue with his business. Are there any plans to improve the traffic flow and to cater for the safety of the pedestrians? I would suggest a widening of the road and an overhead bridge erected in front of the World Trade Centre across Telok Blangah Road.

The Chairman: Mr Selvadurai is not in.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Sir, may I speak now, as my next amendment touches on the same matter?

The Chairman: All right.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Thank you, Sir. Sir, I would like to touch on the question of road-worthiness which is of importance to motor vehicles. In reply to a Question raised by an hon. Member in this House on 2nd March, the Hon. Minister stated that preliminary studies of the manufacturers' reports concerning the two makes of vehicles have been submitted to the ROV and these reports indicated that the vehicles involved in the two accidents conformed to internationally accepted safety standards.

I would like to ask the Hon. Minister whether he can state that the cars of Japanese manufacture imported into Singapore meet the safety standards of similar cars exported to countries like the USA, Western Europe and Australia. I understand that Japanese cars imported into Singapore are classified under separate safety standards which may be lower than the standards set by the countries mentioned and, of course, as a result they are cheaper. Sir, the point I wish to make is, does the ROV have the facilities and capacity to determine or verify the validity of such reports?

Recently, as my colleague, the Member for Telok Blangah, has mentioned, another car of the same make as the Honda mat a similar fate and two persons were killed. As most of us are aware, manufacturers' reports and specifications on safety are often used to advertise and promote the sales of motor vehicles.

Another point I wish to make is that in some countries, motor cars that are found to have defects are recalled by the sales agents or manufacturers to rectify such defects. Have any local agents of motor vehicles of a particular make recalled any vehicles if defects have been found elsewhere, or do they offer explanations like the batch of cars imported into Singapore is not of the same batch that was imported to, say, the United States? Do we have any regulations to compel sales agents or manufacturers to recall cars if any serious defects are found?

I am not suggesting that the drivers involved in the two accidents were blameless. Excessive speed was possibly a major contributing factor. I suspect that there are some defects in these cars from the same country of manufacture. I hope the Hon. Minister will assure us that the standards of safety inspections in the ROV are adequate.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I share the concern of the two Members of the House over the accidents involving the cars which were split into two. I have asked the ROV to work closely with the Traffic Police to ensure that a thorough investigation of the accidents would give us answers that we would like to have.

Sir, for obvious reasons, the ROV cannot comment on the relative merits or demerits of cars of different makes and models. What the ROV can ascertain is that the cars imported into Singapore meet internationally accepted standards.

Sir, we want to ensure that our cars are safe and roadworthy. However, it is common knowledge that different car manufacturers go for different features, be they safety, or cosmetic, to promote the sales of their cars. For example, some car manufacturers go for additional safety features over and above the internationally accepted standards. Others prefer to go for fuel economy. It is, therefore, important that prior to purchasing cars, motorists should in addition to going for looks, also carefully look at the technical specifications of the car.

Sir, in our concern with the recent accidents, where unusual results occurred, we must not forget that in many of these cases, excessive speeding was involved. Sir, the present case is currently under Police investigation and I do not wish to make additional comments on it. I also want to stress to the Members of this House that the safety of the motorists is not the only consideration of the ROV.

Sir, last year, a total of 299 people were killed on our roads. Upon investigation, many of these accidents were found to be due to excessive speeding or cars getting off the road on to curbs or on to the other side of the road. The figures were roughly similar for 1981 and 1982, at 273 and 307 respectively.

We must remember that a large number of the people killed on the roads are innocent bystanders, the other users of roads, the pedestrians, cyclists and motor cyclists. Sir, approximately 80% of the people killed on the roads were not in cars at all. They were the innocent-users of the roads. When you have a driver speeding recklessly, many of such people get injured, some killed. While we must continue to emphasize the importance of safety in cars imported into Singapore, we must not forget that there are other aspects of safety that we must also remember.

Sir, the Member for Toa Payoh asked if cars imported into Singapore meet the internationally accepted standards. I would say yes, they meet the internationally accepted standards. However, I would like to qualify that there are a large number of international standards. Sir, it is common knowledge that countries that manufacture cars have a vested interest in setting standards of their own. So we have a number of American standards, Australian standards, EEC standards, Japanese standards and so on. But many of the countries, including Singapore, that do not have a vested interest in wanting to produce cars accept the internationally accepted standards for their purpose. It is not worth our while, Sir, nor is it practical for us to invest vast sums of money to train the people in order to come up with our own standards which would inevitably be extremely close to the five sets of standards which we are currently using, namely, the US standards, the British standards, the Australian standards, the EEC standards and the Japanese standards.

Sir, if the Member for Toa Payoh could furnish me with any information of cars that do not meet the internationally accepted standards that are imported into Singapore, I would ask the ROV to investigate the matter in detail.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, I am not suggesting in any way that certain international standards have not been met. I am just posing a question to the Hon. Minister as to whether cars of Japanese make are manufactured according to certain standards for export to other countries. I am asking the Minister to confirm or to ascertain whether the ROV has the capacity or capabilities that cars of Japanese manufacture imported into Singapore have met with those standards.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, I have stated that, as we do not manufacture cars in Singapore, we do not have vast laboratories and test tracks to test the cars that are imported into Singapore to see if they meet the standards. But the ROV has been advised and this has been confirmed, that Japanese cars imported into Singapore meet Japanese standards. American cars imported into Singapore meet American standards and so forth.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I am still waiting for an answer to the second question.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah has asked what would happen if the cars on the expressway hit each other head on. Is that his second question?

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: No, Sir, it is about the traffic jam at the World Trade Centre along Telok Blangah Road.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, if drivers of vehicles on the expressway were to take due care, the possibility of two cars running into each other would not occur. Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah is concerned about the traffic jams along Telok Blangah Road, especially the stretch very near to the World Trade Centre. Sir, the PWD is currently widening Telok Blangah Road from Kampong Bahru to the World Trade Centre, converting it into a dual three-lane road. Work will start very soon and is expected to be completed sometime at the end of this year. This will improve the traffic flow considerably. 6.00 pm

The PWD is also considering the building of an overhead bridge to permit pedestrians to cross Telok Blangah Road from the World Trade Centre. It is also anticipated that work on this will commence sometime in the middle of the year and be completed by the end of the year.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, in view of the satisfactory answer, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IC-05 Object Group 1210 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I wish to raise some matters relating to the Toa Payoh Bus Interchange and Feeder Systems. In reply to a Question raised in this House on 17th January, the Hon. Minister stated (1) that the new system would provide a better bus service to the majority of residents in the estate; (2) the new system is also more efficient; (3) the feeder bus service has been successfully tested in other estates.

I have conducted a survey together with my RC and CCC members in my constituency, and I believe my other colleagues from Boon Teck and Kuo Chuan have also conducted a similar survey. From preliminary returns from 200 respondents in my constituency, 154 were not in favour of the new system and would prefer reverting to the old system. In Kuo Chuan Constituency, out of the 162 respondents, 40% did not agree outright. 60% were not happy but would accept some adjustments.

I would quote some of the points of the survey. Average waiting time increased by 15 minutes. Fare increase for majority by 15 cents. Travelling time increased from 15 to 45 minutes, depending on destination. Longer time to queue for tickets of OTS services. School children are most affected especially during inclement weather. They have to leave their homes at least half an hour earlier to take the main and feeder services. Under the old system, many school children take buses to the First Toa Payoh Primary and Secondary Schools. Under the present system, they have to walk to school. There are no toilet facilities in the Interchange. To most of the respondents, it is considered a waste of precious time and money. One proposal was also to allow Scheme B buses to operate along the previous routes.

Sir, as for the successful implementation of similar schemes in other HDB estates, let me draw the Hon. Minister's attention to the overall land area of Toa Payoh compared to other estates. I have here a chart from the HDB Annual Report 1978. In Toa Payoh, the approximate total land area is 325 hectares. This is the smallest after Queenstown. Telok Blangah, 365 hectares; Woodlands, 1,000 hectares; Bedok, 445 hectares; Ayer Rajah, 445 hectares; Ang Mo Kio, 730 hectares. The figures for Hougang and Clementi are not available.

I am pessimistic as to whether the views expressed will influence the Hon. Minister to consider reverting back to the old system. The new scheme is nothing more than a cost-savings exercise for the SBS at the expense and inconvenience of commuters in Toa Payoh.

Sir, I therefore wind up by making the following proposals:

(1) Service 140: to extend to Shenton Way with a stop at Newton.

(2) Service 141: to put up a bus stop at Clemenceau Avenue near the Girl Guides Association.

(3) Service 147: to reinstate its service which was abolished.

(4) Service 151: to extend to weekends. As of now, it only operates during weekdays.

(5) To allow Scheme B buses a limited service around the estate to supplement the feeder service.

Sir, if the SBS is unable to provide a better feeder service, then why not allow Scheme B buses to provide a better service to residents? We know that the SBS is interested in reducing cost and manpower but surely something ought to be done to relieve the inconvenience caused to commuters in Toa Payoh New Town.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, first of all, let me thank the Member for Toa Payoh for his concern for his constituents. The other Members of Parliament for Khe Bong, Boon Teck, Kim Keat and Kuo Chuan have also similarly undertaken on behalf of their constituents to bring the problems of their constituents to the attention of my Ministry and the SBS.

Sir, I would also like to thank the very many community leaders in these consti- tuencies where the Interchange has brought about some degree of change in the travel pattern of the residents. They have worked very hard. Kim Keat, for example, has devised a questionnaire, gone round and distributed the questionnaires, collected the questionnaires, made interviews with some of the people, analyzed the results and came up with positive recommendations to the Ministry and to the SBS for consideration.

Sir, my Ministry has been working very closely with the Members of Parliament and their community leaders and have discussed many of the points raised by the Member for Toa Payoh. We are appreciative of the positive approach taken by Members of Parliament and by the community leaders. Sir, unfortunately, in a place like Singapore where we have to cater for the vast majority of people, sometimes the wishes of the minority cannot be met. Sir, change is painful, inevitably so, particularly to those who are adversely affected. However, if we do not adapt to changing circumstances, then that would definitely be the sure way of creating greater pain for the greater number of our people in the long run.

Sir, the Interchange at Toa Payoh was planned as early as the mid-70s and it had not been possible to implement it because of the shortage of land and because of the building of the Interchange. In the meantime, while the Interchange was not carried out at Toa Payoh, the SBS proceeded to introduce the interchange/feeder concept into a number of other housing estates such as Serangoon Gardens, Bedok, Ang Mo Kio, Clementi, Telok Blangah, Tampines, Hougang, Jurong East, Jurong West and Woodlands.

Sir, I want to emphasize that the feeder concept is a well tested system. It is not something that we are testing in operation in Toa Payoh. It has worked in the other constituencies, in the other housing estates, after initial unhappiness from the residents. I refer the House to Hansard, 16th March, 1978, where shortly after the introduction of the feeder system in Serangoon Gardens, the Member for Serangoon Gardens presented views very similar to those of the Member for Toa Payoh in this House.

Sir, Hansard, 14th June 1978, the Member for Jurong also did likewise bring to the attention of the House and the Minister concerned the problems faced by some of the residents in his constituency. Hansard 24th March 1981, Members in the constituencies affected by the Bedok Interchange also brought forward similar views to the Minister concerned and Members of this House.

Sir, what we are dealing with is really a very old problem. I want to very quickly emphasize that this does not mean that we should not take cognizance of the views of Members in the Toa Payoh Estate. However, we must ensure that the views that are reflected represent the collective views as far as is possible, of the majority of the people and not of the minority.

The Member for Toa Payoh reported that he has samples from 200 members. Sir, I am not surprised that there is a small number of people who have responded to the survey or the questionnaires.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: The returns are still coming in.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: They are still coming in. Sir, I can understand the problem because in Toa Payoh the SBS has carried out intensive surveys involving a total of 1,500 passengers selected randomly. And the figures that have been presented to my Ministry indicate that 83% of the people in Toa Payoh constituency walk to the Interchange. Only 17% of them have got to use the feeder service.

Sir, I do not wish to disagree on all the figures that the Member has brought up other than to say that if we start off with a non-representative sample, it is very dangerous to draw conclusions from them. But I would like to assure the House that overall, for the whole of Toa Payoh housing estate, the increase in travelling time has been extremely small. The figures presented to my Ministry again suggest that for the total population of approximately 29,000 passengers, there is an increase of travel time of approximately 1 1/2 to two minutes. This Is because while there are, of course, many who have to take much longer travelling time with the new feeder concept system, there are many who have access to trunk services which they previously had not and, as a result of that, there has been a significant decrease of time for some of the passengers.

As to the significant increase in fares, again I accept that the figure could have been correct, and is representative of that group of people who have replied. But again for the total population in Toa Payoh, estimates provided suggest that there is an increase of approximately 1.4 cents for the total population of 29,000 passengers in Toa Payoh.

Sir, it is not worthwhile going into figures to prove this or to prove that. What is important is that having had the system which has worked well in some 10 to 12 other housing estates, we should work together to look for various ways and means of improving the Interchange, of speeding up the flow of traffic, of providing many additional services where the demand necessitates. In that respect, I am very grateful to the Member for Toa Payoh for giving specific recommendations regarding Services 140, 141, 147, 151 and so forth. I will ask SBS to carefully take these suggestions and study them to see how we can better improve the services for residents in Toa Payoh. 6.15 pm

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, just two more points in reply to the Minister's statement. He has given the percentage of the number of people who walk to the Interchange. It is quite obvious because those people are staying in localities where there is not a good feeder bus service to the Interchange. So they walk there. Secondly, he mentioned that this has been tested successfully in other estates. I have already pointed out to him that Toa Payoh is a very small estate compared to the others and the layout of the other new estates is in a better position to have an Interchange sited there. But Toa Payoh is a very small town, only 325 hectares, as compared to the others which is twice the size.

Anyway, I see no purpose in prolonging the argument. So I would like to beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment, standing in the name of Mr Liew Kok Pun, has been withdrawn:

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IC-05 Object Group 2150 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IC-05 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, SBS has been improving its services much to the benefit of Singaporeans taking public transport, I am also pleased that my many requests on behalf of my constituents have been met with favourably. By and large, public transport for Telok Blangah Constituency has greatly improved in the last three to four years.

We should constantly improve the SBS services whenever we can but not at the expense of any commuters. For this reason, I would like to forward a suggestion. Lately, SBS has been converting its services into OTS and OMO. These have increased productivity for SBS but it has also caused inconvenience to the public because the bus commuters are required to have the exact change for their fares. Did SBS foresee this problem, and what will be done to alleviate it? I would suggest that a coin changing machine be installed, initially at the Interchanges and later at all terminals. I have seen an efficient one which not only change coins to smaller coins but dollar notes to coins. This was in San Francisco in their underground known as the .BART. By putting this machine, I feel SBS need not increase its manpower substantially. Would the Minister please consider this request?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, we are now on Public Transport and it is on that that I wish to say a few words, I am not speaking on behalf of any particular constituency's problems or area problems but problems as a whole. First of all, may I say a little bit about the MRT. We read a lot of publicity about the MRT, the construction that is going ahead. What I would like to know is whether there has been any projection done about the cost for the persons who will be using the MRT? Is it going to be economical? I see in the Act which we passed sometime ago that the Authority which is responsible for operating the transport is required or enjoined to recover all its operating costs, presumably from the fares collected. Do we have any forecast of the operating costs involved, and how much of it will be passed on to the commuters? Because if it is going to be prohibitive, then it will not serve its purpose. So I would like to know whether there has been any research done into the projected cost of travel on the MRT.

The other question I have is on the Government policy on public transport as a whole. I think it will be useful, if I may suggest, with all due respect to the Ministry of Communications, that the problem should be looked at as a whole, the bus service, the MRT, the taxi service and how they fit into one another to provide Singapore with an efficient public transport. It is no good dealing with one problem in isolation from the others. They must complement one another and, as I say, jointly provide Singapore with the public transport that it should have. I do not know whether this is being done. If it is being done, I wonder whether we will see a paper on this at all from the Ministry of Communications. I think it is important when we come to issues like transport, housing, medical services, that Government should set out in a paper its programme, its outline of actions, so that the public know what is being done, know what the problems the Government has to face and come up with any suggestions that they might wish to put forward.

I would like to know in particular about the bus services. At one time, Sir, we had several companies. We had the Singapore Traction Company and then we had a number of other companies, all operating bus services. Then it was decided that it was not economical. It was probably a waste to have so many companies and it was decided to merge the companies into one company, the Singapore Bus Service. But I see now some of the routes from the SBS are to be hived off and given to another company. Is it the Ministry's plan that there should be other bus companies as well operating in Singapore? So this would mean a reversal of what the position was before they were all brought together under one company.

Then there is the question of taxis. Last year, I raised the question about the transfer of taxis, of vocational licences of individual operators, and I really had in mind the yellow-top taxi owners and operators. I referred to an announcement that was made some years ago, saying that no transfers would be allowed. The then Minister for Communications, in answer to my Question in this House said, I stand corrected, of course, that that rule was being relaxed and the transfers would be allowed in proper cases. I want to know what the policy is now as regards transferability of licences of private operators. I would also like to know from the Minister whether it is the intention to license companies now to run taxi services as against individual operators. At one time, I thought the intention was that taxi services should only be run by individual operators, until of course the NTUC came on the scene with its fleet. Now, I would like to know whether it is the intention of the Ministry that companies should be allowed to run a fleet of taxis.

I hear various criticisms about the taxis. Some say there are far too many taxis on the road. I hear this from the taxi drivers. They say there are far too many taxis on the road. I hear from the Ministry side that perhaps there are not enough taxis on the road and there is a need to license more taxis. May we know what is the real position? What is the view that the Ministry takes about the number of taxis on the road?

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Sir, contrary to the many complaints brought up by members of the public against taxi drivers, vis-a-vis our taxi service, I found that from the past three years' experience of travelling daily by taxi that our taxis are generally clean and comfortable. I will continue to travel by taxis because I find it to be convenient and inexpensive. I have always been able to keep my appointment in time to attend meetings or functions. It is only a matter of waiting at the right place to get your taxi, or planning your journey ahead of time and make the necessary arrangement of booking for the taxi at the required time and place. I wish to commend and express my appreciation to all our taxi drivers who have provided a reliable and efficient service. But I feel there is room for improvement which I hope the Ministry of Communications will give due consideration.

Taxi drivers represent a cross-section of our Singaporeans from different occupational backgrounds, particularly among those who are driving on a part-time basis. They are generally polite and ready to please the passengers so long as we, the passengers, are not too demanding or appear discourteous to them. They always give the impression that they want to send us to our destination as quickly as possible so that they could get other passengers within the period of time that they are scheduled to use the taxis. From the informal casual conversations with them, I gather that they enjoy the extra earnings that they are receiving. But from time to time I come across old drivers who appear to me to be having difficulties in driving as reflected by their trembling hands in controlling the driving wheels and struggling to seek their direction because of their poor eye sight. At certain times I have also come across young taxi drivers who having been just issued with their driving licences were faced with difficulties in deciding which was the best route to take and in locating my destination.

May I ask the Hon. Minister if he will inform the House on how the Ministry makes its selection from among the thousands of applicants suitable candidates to be issued with taxi licences. What kind of training is provided for these taxi drivers before they are allowed to drive the taxis? Is age limit imposed on the qualification for taxi licences? Are taxi drivers subject to regular medical check-ups to ensure that they do not carry with them communicable diseases and that they are medically or physically fit to drive taxis safely?

It is true that taxis are scarce and difficult to get at certain periods, particularly during peak hours in the city areas and also on week-ends, such as Saturday afternoons or evenings and also on Sundays as well as public holidays. My constituents have always complained about difficulties in getting taxis and the radio service is mostly engaged most of the time during these periods I have mentioned. The Ministry must seriously consider ways and means to encourage taxi drivers to ply their taxis during periods of high demand. I believe that with the addition of taxis run by SBS and the Singapore Commuter to the Comfort fleet of taxis and the Yellow-tops, there are a sufficient number of taxis operating in Singapore and therefore the Ministry should come out with a plan to further improve the whole taxi service. The radio phone service is the most convenient but not necessarily the most effective way of getting taxis, even though there is the need to pay an extra $3 as booking fee. At certain times the taxi does not arrive at the time requested but the driver still insists that the passenger pay the extra fare, Can we make sure that the taxi drivers do not ask for this extra fare if they come too late from the time they are requested by the passengers. 6.30 pm

The second point I would like to bring up is the complaint repeatedly brought up by my constituents with regard to the feeder bus services which provide the common means of transport for residents in Kaki Bukit, particularly in moving from Neighbourhood 5 to 6 and 7 and thereabout. The feeder service is the most convenient way of travelling within the constituency and I have been using the feeder service to travel within the constituency most of the time, particularly during week-ends. The main complaint is that the buses are not regular. Sometimes they bunch up and come along with all the three buses together and the buses are normally crowded. When this is brought to the attention of SBS, there will be improvement but the same problem will crop up again.

Two Sundays ago I was waiting for the feeder bus service to join my constituents. There was a big crowd at the bus stop and one of the old men mentioned to me, "On Sundays, only four buses are being used for the feeder bus service." I asked him how did he know about this. He showed me a pass that he is a bus driver himself. So he knows. On Sundays and week-ends, only four buses are used. Therefore, all the buses will be full with passengers. Only on other days are more buses being used. I hope the Ministry will look into the whole matter and to ensure that the feeder service is always efficient and that it meets the demands of the public.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, first of all, can I just go back a little and reply to the Member for Toa Payoh who did not give me a chance to reply to his final statement. I have instructed SBS to invite Members of Parliament, members of community centres, CCCs, MCs and RCs to join them whenever they are carrying out their surveys so that Members can satisfy themselves that the figures that are collected are truly representative, that it is the total picture that we are interested in, that while we accept and we must continue to empathize and sympathize with the minority who are adversely affected by the change, that by and large, the change has been for the better for the vast majority of people.

The Member for Telok Blangah raised the question of money-changing machines for various Interchanges. This subject is currently being pursued. These machines have to be specifically and specially designed. There are other such machines on the market but these are all designed for currencies of other countries with very tight tolerances. The tolerance has got to be tight, otherwise there will be excessive cheating via the feeding in of counterfeit notes. This subject is being currently pursued actively and SBS will put into operation these machines as soon as the manufacturers are able to make them available.

The Member for Anson asked about the fares for MRT. It is premature at the moment to talk about the fares for the MRT. Obviously systematic plans and projections have been made but these figures have to be modified in the light of costs that will have to be incurred as a result of changing prices in fuel and spare pans. But it must be obvious to this House, Sir, that it is not possible to price the fares for the MRT at prohibitive rates. If that were so, nobody would be taking the MRT, The MRT must be priced competitively relative to buses and taxis.

Sir, I would like to point out also that the Member for Anson has not been listening at all to the replies given to other Members of this House. I have stated, in reply to the Member for Whampoa, that my Ministry is conducting a comprehensive study on the problem of land transportation. I have emphasized to the Member for Kaki Bukit that this is indeed the case. Hence the need for a comprehensive survey to be looked at from the point of dovetailing it with the MRT system. There is no question about it that we are indeed having a comprehensive look at the total problem.

The Member for Anson also complains about the introduction of a new bus service - the Trans-island Bus Service. The reason for introducing TIBS is to introduce a degree of competition for the SBS in order to ensure that the public of Singapore get the best possible service with respect to our bus system. The Member appears to be always looking at stagnant ideas - taking one idea and flogging a dead horse again and again and again and year after year after year. This is not the approach that this Government takes, This Government looks at the changes that occur and then seeks solutions that will respond to the changes and in the process provide our people with a better way of life.

Sir, the Member for Anson repeats exactly what he said last year in his queries regarding the transfer of taxi licences. He claims that the former Minister had given an undertaking . . .

Mr Jeyaretnam: Not an undertaking. Do not use terms you do not understand.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: This is exactly what I want to point out. The Member for Anson had found it convenient to misquote the Minister and the former Minister has passed me a note saying that he did not say such a thing - that there was no undertaking.

Mr Jeyaretnam: We will look up in the Hansard.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, I would suggest that the Member look up Hansard. If he does not know which page, I can tell him. It is in col. 192 of Vol. No. 42. He can read through the whole extract from that particular debate.

An hon. Member: He cannot read!

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, the Member for Anson misquotes again, obviously deliberately, saying that the Ministry of Com- munications had said that there were not enough taxis. I would like him to provide evidence that show that the Ministry had said that there were not enough taxis. Is he prepared to provide that evidence? I am prepared to say right now, this very moment, that there are enough taxis in Singapore to meet the demands of all commuters in Singapore. Obviously we must remember that the taxi is a highly personalised service and taxis go wherever their fares require them to. As a result of this, the pattern of distribution of taxis at any one time in Singapore is determined by supply and demand and it is therefore possible that some commuters who wish to take a taxi may not be able to get a taxi immediately.

The Member for Kaki Bukit commended on the good taxi service that we have. I would like to thank him on behalf of the taxi drivers in Singapore because they indeed provide an excellent service for us in Singapore. I would like to bring to the attention of the House some statistics to counter the very many complaints that have appeared in the press, isolated complaints, ie, complaints from a minority who are unable to look at the problem in its totality.

There are a total of 11,350 taxis in Singapore and, as I stated a moment ago, this number is more than enough to meet current demand. Obviously, as demand increases as a result of the higher disposable income that Singaporeans are getting year by year, the number of taxis will have to be increased, but slowly. There are a total of 33,000 taxi licences and these taxis provide approximately 120 million passenger trips a year. Out of that 120 million passenger trips, for the year 1983 there were only a total of 1,223 complaints. This works out to only 10 complaints per million passenger trips. Sir, I have no doubt in my mind that the taxi drivers provide an excellent service.

Sir, I can read numerous letters to the press from locals as well as from visitors to Singapore clearly stating the quality of the taxi drivers that we have. For example, this is from a local passenger:

'I boarded the taxi. I know how much the trip will cost because this is a trip that I normally take. On the last leg of the journey, however, we encountered heavy traffic. I then realized that I would be short of money because the meter kept on recording the fare. I explained the situation to the taxi driver and told him to drop me the moment the meter registered the sum of money that I have. He insisted on taking me to my destination. I was embarrassed by what happened but was at the same time touched by his kindness. He may say that the dead is small but it is something of great value to me and I would therefore like to thank him for what he has done.'

Sir, this is typical of our taxi drivers. I can read you more, but I think the point is made.

It is important that while we try to continue to encourage our taxi drivers to provide a level of service that people in Singapore as well as our tourists have come to expect, we must also continue to ensure that the few bad hats do not give the rest of the taxi drivers a bad reputation, and it is in this context that it is important that we should continue to exercise discipline on those who smear and tarnish the good name of our taxi drivers.

Sir, the Member for Kaki Bukit also raised the question of old drivers. It is obvious, we in Singapore are short of labour and with improvements in our health care and higher levels of nutrition, our workers are able to work to a much later age. In this context, in consultation with the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Communications has decided to allow taxi drivers to drive until the age of 70. However, after the age of 60, they will have to undergo a medical examination each year. I am sure many of us have seen very healthy 70-year-olds and as long as they continue to pass the medical examinations they will be allowed to continue with earning their living. Nevertheless, the number is extremely small. There are only about 3% of the taxi drivers in the age range between 60 and 65 and about 1% between the age range of 65 and 70.

The Member for Kaki Bukit also complained about the difficulty in getting taxis. As I explained a moment ago, the pattern of distribution of taxis depends on supply and demand. However, recently, surveys were made in Bedok to ascertain the number of taxis available in Bedok New Town. By counting the number of taxis going into Bedok New Town we realized that there were actually large numbers of taxis going into Bedok New Town. If the Member for Kaki Bukit is interested, there are 21,000 sightings of taxis going into Bedok New Town on a week-day and this figure goes up to approximately 29,000 on week-ends. So there should not be any difficulty in getting a taxi.

In fact, Sir, surveys throughout the whole of Singapore at selected points suggest that 58% of passengers had to wait for less than five minutes to get their taxis. Another 18% will have to wait between five and 10 minutes. Another 9% approximately between five and 10 minutes; another 9% approximately between 10 and 15 minutes, with the remainder having to wait a little longer. 6.45 pm

Sir, the Member for Kaki Bukit also raised the question of feeder bus service in his Constituency. Part of the answer has been mentioned in my reply to him earlier on during the session for Questions for Oral Answer. However, I would like to let him know that the feeder bus service in his Constituency is fairly satisfactory on an overall basis. The buses are operated with a peak headway of four minutes. Sometimes buses do, for one reason or another, get caught in traffic jams or as a result of passengers at a particular point not being able to clear straightaway and one gets occasional bunching. These are the inevitable problems. But the figures available to me indicate that the headway, which is the time difference between one bus and another, is approximately four minutes in Bedok New Town.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Hon. Minister has given very impressive figures and I am sure they are true. Anyway, I would just like to say that Kaki Bukit Constituency is very big and Bedok New Town is also a very big town. Kaki Bukit Constituency consists of at least three neighbourhoods. I would like to inform him that, just to ascertain whether what he has said is true, my Citizens Consultative Committee is going to conduct a questionnaire survey, beginning from April to June to find out exactly from the residents what actually is the true situation of the taxi service and the bus service. I understand that there is a request by taxi drivers to have a taxi stand in my Constituency. I do not know what is the position. I was told that it was turned down. The residents believe that one of the ways to improve the taxi service is to provide a taxi stand in Bedok New Town, particularly in the Kaki Bukit Constituency.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, there are three matters. First of all, about the transferability. I do not think I said that the then Minister gave an undertaking. I said, if I remember rightly and I stand corrected, what he said was that in proper cases, transfers were being allowed - I remember that very clearly - where he thought the person was of good character and had a good record. All right. You shake your head. You say you never said it. The question is, what is the policy now? Is it as inflexible as ever? Are you allowing any transfers or not of any operators of taxis where the father wants to transfer his taxi to his son? I remember mentioning that. Are you as inflexible as ever?

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, are you referring to me again?

Mr Jeyaretnam: The Ministry. I beg your pardon, Sir. Is the Ministry as inflexible as ever then in not allowing any transfer, or is there any change? Perhaps the Acting Minister might answer that question without wasting too much time on whether or not the Minister said that, the last time I raised this point.

Secondly, the Acting Minister complains that I have not been listening. He has told two other Members of this House that there was a Committee which was making a comprehensive survey. That, I understood, was in relation to the bus services, and I said it should be the whole problem of land transport. If you are now saying that there is a Committee looking into the whole question of land transport, good thank you very much. The question is, will there be a report? Will there be a paper on this? May I ask the Minister whether there will be a paper on the whole question and how soon can we expect this?

I am coming to the question that I was going to ask. What is the thinking of the Ministry as regards the bus service and the provision of transport? Do they think that it should still remain in the hands of private companies? Now, as I have said, they would appear to be going back to the position that existed sometime ago of having more than one company operating bus services. Why is the Ministry hesitant to bring the whole of the bus services under one authority? As I have said before, Sir, this Government is ready to take on a number of other business ventures where it thinks they might be profitable. But there is this transport service which is essential. It is as essential as anything else in Singapore, like housing or medical care. Why is the Government not taking over the transport undertaking altogether and putting it under a corporation to provide a unified transport service for Singaporeans at minimum cost? I know I will be told about London Transport. I do not want to hear a repetition of that. I want to know why you think in Singapore we can have more than one company. That must be a waste, trying to run bus services for a small place like Singapore. That is all, Sir.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: I think the former Minister for Communications had clearly stated that the Member was misquoting him. Therefore, there is no need for me to go into that point again.

Sir, let me take the points raised by the Member for Kaki Bukit. I would make the same offer to the Member for Kaki Bukit as I did to the Members of this House, that he, together with his community leaders, or he can send representatives at different times, join the SBS when they conduct their surveys so that he is personally satisfied. Sir, I think by now we must realize that the people who bring their complaints to Members of Parliament are the people who are unhappy. People who are happy do not come to see their Members of Parliament. This is the way Singaporeans behave and we must accept it. But if the Member for Kaki Bukit would take cognizance of the advice given by the First Deputy Prime Minister to the Member for Ayer Rajah - that he should not have a light ear but a discerning mind - I think many of the problems that he talked about would be easily resolved.

Sir, I have better news for him regarding the taxi stand in Bedok. After consultation with various groups of people, including community leaders, officers of the Ministry of Communications together with the ROV have decided that it would be possible to have a taxi stand in Bedok. This taxi stand will be constructed very soon.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Where?

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, it would be possible to construct it before the middle of the year, but it depends.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Where?

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, I am not familiar with Kaki Bukit as the Member for Kaki Bukit is. Therefore, I would not be able to ascertain which is the best place to have it. However, the Committee looking into this problem will consult the Member in deciding where the location for the taxi stand should be in order to best serve the total population of Bedok, not just Kaki Bukit.

Sir, the Member for Anson has conveniently forgotten that I asked him for evidence that the Ministry of Communications has said . . .

Mr Jeyaretnam: May I answer that? We know that since the last Sitting there has been a new company licensed. I saw in the papers that there were a fleet of about 200 taxis. If you are licensing new taxis and giving licences to companies to operate them, obviously the Ministry must take the view that there are not enough taxis. It is as simple as that. I want to know what is the Ministry's view? Do you think that there are already enough taxis on the road and are you then stopping the licensing of new additional taxis? Replacement is another matter. But are you stopping the licensing of additional taxis?

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, firstly, I think the Member for Anson was not listening. Secondly, he has answered his own question. Of course, we are increasing the number of taxis. But that does not mean that there are not enough taxis. If that is too subtle for the Member for Anson, let me explain. Sir, the number of taxis required for a given population can be determined, and having established the number required, we try to keep the ratio of rides with fare-paying passengers to the number of rides where the taxis will have to drive around empty. So if we provide too many taxis, then the income for taxi drivers will drop, because they will spend a great proportion of their time driving an empty taxi because there are not enough passengers. Sir, as I said earlier, the number of taxis will be increased gradually to meet the demand that is anticipated with the rising disposable income of Singaporeans.

Sir, the Member for Anson asked why we do not have all the bus services amalgamated into one company. Again, I think the explanation was given a moment ago. We are trying to encourage a degree of competition in order that the vast majority of Singaporeans will enjoy a more effective and efficient bus service. Where it is appropriate, the Government has no hesitation to run its own operations. This is the case with regard to the MRTC. So there is no question of the Government running a particular branch of public transportation. But it must be appropriate.

Sir, I think the Member for Anson also raised another question as to whether we should publish all the reports that we have when we study problems of land transportation. The answer is no. If we were to publish everything that we have, then the Ministry will have nothing else but reports and reports coming day after day. 7.00 pm

Sir, a lot of work goes on in Ministries prior to the formulation of a policy. A lot of work has got to be done in thinking through and implementing the policies, adjusting the policies in the light of changes in Singapore as well as changes outside Singapore in the rest of the world that impact upon us, that influence us, that result in certain other responses that we need to make in order to ensure that we got the best possible transportation system for us in Singapore. For example, if there is a sudden price rise in the cost of fuel, then the more fuel intensive transportation systems will be less favoured and hence there would beg reater emphasis on the more fuel efficient methods of transportation such as the MRT. And this has got to be done on a continuous basis, not a once off son of situation, the report comes out and everything is settled.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for all the answers that he has given to my questions. I stand to be corrected. I do not know whether the Minister has answered my question with regard to the kind of training provided for new taxi drivers. I accept his advice that I should not have light ears. But I would like to assure the Minister that I have caring ears. Perhaps I would like to quote the President's Address at the opening of this Parliament on 3rd February 1981. Hansard, Vol. 40, No. 1, col. 13, states:

'Members of this Parliament, especially those who are not constrained by ministerial office, have a duty to voice the view of their constituents, in committees, in questions and in debates. Nothing should be passed without thorough, critical, and open debate. Parliament must mirror the views, the hopes, the doubts and the fears of Singaporeans.'

My residents may have wrong views, may have unrealistic fears, but it is my duty to reflect these in Parliament. And I hope the Hon. Minister perhaps could answer whatever questions that we have brought up rather than telling us not to have light ears.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, I welcome the Member for Kaki Bukit's reflection of the views of his constituents. However, I suggested that he should be discriminating in ensuring that he does not believe wholeheartedly the views brought to him and that, wherever possible, he should look at the total picture and then help explain why it is possible that occasionally four or five buses come together and are bunched together, that there is no concerted effort on the part of SBS to run four or five buses close to each other. That is what I have in mind. I would like to thank the Member for reflecting his residents' views. But if the Member could help us then problems of this sort would be, as i stated earlier, more easily resolved.

Sir, the Member also raised the question of training for taxi drivers. This is indeed the case. As a result of the rapid building of flats in Singapore - and the Minister for National Development a few days ago told us the large number of flats that would be built, probably closer to 50,000 for the year 1984 - it is inevitable that in now housing estates some taxi drivers may not know their way around as readily as they do in the older housing estates. The ROV is aware of this and intensive training will be carried out for taxi drivers when new housing estates are occupied by residents.

In addition to these classes to acquaint taxi drivers with the locality of new housing estates, the ROV is also conducting classroom sessions to help learner taxi drivers find their way around in the whole of Singapore. And such courses can go on for as long as two months, trying to give them a total appreciation of the road network, the shortest routes to various places from various other places and so forth. These classroom sessions are also followed by on-the-job guided tour, taking them round, showing them the various bottle-necks that exist in our road network.

It is also intended that courses would be conducted for existing taxi drivers to upgrade them in their knowledge of new mutes, new roads, particularly those who had taxi licences for more than 10 years. And very soon, the ROV will make it compulsory for taxi drivers to carry the latest copy of the Street Directory.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to assure the Hon. Minister that we as Backbenchers do take an overall picture of the whole problem before we bring up residents' complaints to this House. And I would like to assure him that for me I always abide by the advice given by our Leader of the House on 3rd Feb- ruary, 1981. In Hansard, Vol. 40, No. 1, col. 9, he said:

'A bit of advice from an old hand should not hurt. No Member will stray from the straight and narrow path if he always lets his conscience be his guide.'

It is always my conscience that pushes me to bring up the issues in Parliament.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, before I withdraw the amendment, I would like to thank the Minister for considering my suggestion on the coin changing machine, Can I make another suggestion, Sir? Could he extend the season tickets to all commuters and not just to shareholders and school children? Since most of the fares are fixed, would he not be able to zone Singapore and sell season tickets? This would give better cash flow to SBS as well as convenience and a discount to the commuters and ease for the commuters. Would he consider this also?

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, season tickets are currently being considered by the SBS. However, zoning of Singapore and the restructuring of bus routes can be disruptive and it is the intention of my Ministry to ensure that disruption of this sort should be kept to a minimum. Therefore, it is likely that season tickets of different sorts, not just the fixed fare type but season tickets of different sons, and the rezoning of Singapore and the realteration of services and routes will be carried out close to the arrival of the MRT so that Singaporeans would not be disrupted too severely too frequently.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, on that note, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

7.10 pm

Mr Lim Boon Heng: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead ID-01 Object Group 1210 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to the marine industry, particularly the ship-owning and ship-manning sectors.This is an industry which is undergoing quite severe changes, some of which are structural in nature and this is aggravated by the recession that has afflicted the industry in the last few years. With these changes taking place, there is now an unemployment problem affecting both the officers, engineers as well as able seamen on board.

The Ministry rightly in October 1982 appointed a committee to study the demand and supply of Singapore sea-farers for the immediate and long-term future. So the committee has been studying this problem for the last 11/2 years. I would like to ask the Minister whether this committee has completed its study and what are its recommendations. Because if there is an unemployment problem and if there is not going to be a demand for some categories of seafarers on board ships, then we should be in a position to advise them of their prospects for the future and let them decide what course of action they should take.

Sir, in relation to this, I would also like to ask the Minister if he would consider the setting up of a central body to coordinate the training of seafarers. Presently, there are two institutions. One, the National Maritime Board which operates and runs the training ship, Singapore, in Sembawang and the other the Singapore Polytechnic. I know that the Singapore Polytechnic does not come under the purview of the Minister for Communications but nevertheless a certain amount of coordination is required. And the Singapore Polytechnic should be given the right inputs as to the demand for categories of officers and engineers on board ship.

The next point I would like to draw the attention of the Minister is that there is one particular area of seafarers who are more severely affected than the others. This category refers to the local and home-trade officers. There was quite a considerable amount of exchange in the press of late and I think I do not need to elaborate to the Minister and to this House the problems faced by the local and home-trade officers. But this has to do with the proposed implementation of the STCW Convention, i.e. the Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Shafarers Convention, adopted by the Inter- maritime Organization and this Convention is due to come into force in the near future, in fact, in April.

The Marine Department has drawn up a new grading of officers and the local and home-trade officers are now finding themselves somewhat downgraded. In particular, the home trade masters find that they are in grade 4 and they would possibly lose the title of Captain to which they have been used to. They would like the Marine Department to consider the possibility of retaining the grade of home-trade master grade 1, even though they would still be following the category of grade 4 under the proposed scheme by the Marine Department.

We are aware that these local and home-trade officers are not as well qualified academically as the foreign-going officers and there are certain subjects which these officers have not taken in order to pass the examinations because they are not required in the first place. But these local and home-trade officers will obviously have to find other opportunities of continuing a career at sea, and quite obviously the course would be that they could be given the opportunity to be upgraded into the foreign-going category. But this means that they would have to undergo retraining. Sir, I would like to ask the Minister whether his Ministry would assist in setting up training programmes for these officers and whether the existing training institutions could be tapped to help these officers. And for those in the local and home-trade, whether it would be possible for them to be suitably certified so that they could sail in home trades in other areas. One of the areas would be possibly in Europe. 7.15 pm

There is also another avenue which these officers could go into and that is the foreign-going tugboats. There is quite a considerable demand for tugboat operations in the oceans because of offshore oil exploration activities. If these local and home-trade officers could be certified to be able to command such tugboats, it would help to create employment opportunities for them.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, let me first of all deal with the problem of unemployment for seamen. Sir, there are three main reasons for the difficulties faced by some of our seafarers in getting employment on board ship. First, there has been a drop in demand for seafarers over the past several years, largely as a result of the world-wide slump, particularly in the shipping industry. Jobs were lost when shipowners reduce the size of their fleet because of the very low demand. Secondly, the cost of employing our seafarers is relatively high compared with employing seafarers from other countries. This has made the Singapore seafarer less competitive. It is therefore important that we should encourage our seafarers to upgrade their skills in order that they may be able to give better value for the wages that they receive. Thirdly, Sir, the introduction of new and modern ships require much fewer seamen even though they require more officers.

Sir, these are all factors that we in Singapore have no control because shipping is an international business and nothing that we do in Singapore will have the least impact on the demand of shipping world-wide. But what we can do and what we must do is to continue to provide opportunities for training to upgrade our seamen and this is where the NTUC can play a very important role in encouraging our seamen to upgrade themselves in order to remain competitive. Sir, for those who are unable or unwilling to upgrade in order to remain competitive in the shipping industry, there are jobs aplenty on shore and it should not be difficult for seamen who are unable to upgrade or who, having spent a significant period of their lives out at sea, wish to remain at home to seek alternative employment.

Sir, the Member for Kebun Baru asked about the Committee that has been formed. The Committee has indeed been formed and it is in its final stages. A report should be out very soon within the next two or three months. Until the report comes out, it is not proper for me to comment on the recommendations that will be published in the final report. I hope the Member for Kebun Baru will be patient enough to wait for that report to come out.

The Member also raised the question of coordination of training. Sir, this has always been done. Coordination between the various bodies concerned with the training of our seamen and officers has always been carried out. This coordination has been carried out on an informal basis between the Ministry, the Marine Department, the National Maritime Board and the Polytechnic. However, the Committee has also been given special terms of reference to study the problem of setting up a centralized maritime training institution to oversee all seafarers' training in Singapore. I am sure we are all looking forward to their considered view on this particular matter.

Sir, I want to emphasize that the Committee comprises representatives from my Ministry, from the Polytechnic, from the Singapore Organization of Seamen, the Singapore Maritime Officers' Union, Singapore Maritime Employers' Federation and the Singapore National Shipowners' Association. These are the people who know the subject best. We would look forward to their recommendations.

Sir, the question of home-trade master was raised. Let me give a very brief background to this problem in order that Members of this House will understand. Sir, indeed, as the Member noted, the shipping industry is undergoing a structural change. The present regulations that we have are out-dated and must be brought up to date if we want to continue to be competitive and compatible to other current ship board practices, particularly with a view to enhancing safety at sea. New regulations have been drafted to bring them in line with the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers, STCW as it is normally referred to. This Convention will come into operation on the 28th April, 1984, which is next month. The Convention will allow contracting states to check on the competence of officers on board. Ships found with deficient manning or incompetent officers risk detention. Under these new proposals the home-trade masters can still remain masters of home-trade ships. The syllabi for home-trade masters and that for the second-mate (foreign- going) are drawn up by the Marine Department.

As the Member rightly pointed out, there are differences in standards. Some of the subjects are common. Therefore, in order to help our home-trade masters to upgrade, we must encourage them to attend the appropriate classes so that they would qualify to serve on foreign-going ships. My Ministry will work closely with the NTUC to see what can be done with respect to organization of courses for these officers. These officers will, because of their practical experience, be exempted from a number of papers, such as chart work and navigation. Those with adequate experience will also be given certificates of service.

The Member for Kebun Baru asked if our home-trade masters would be allowed to operate tugboats. Sir, as far as the Marine Department is able to ascertain, this is not possible as the certificates that are granted to them do not enable them to serve under those conditions. The size of the vessel is not the criteria for granting a certificate for such international tugboats. Regarding other home-trade areas, this will also depend on the area concerned and if the training that our home-trade masters receive is appropriate in the area concerned, this could be looked into.

Mr Lim Boon Heng: Sir, I thank the Minister for his positive response to this particular problem. I note that the special Committee that was set up to study the supply and demand of seafarers in Singapore is in the final stages of its study and the report would be out in two to three months' time.

I would like to ask the Minister whether this Committee has also looked at the problem of the blurring of job functions on board ships arising out of technological advancement. Let me elaborate on what this blurring of job functions means. In the 1950s a typical crew on board a ship totalled 55. In the 1960s it went down to about 37. In the 1970s it was further reduced to 27. Now the more advanced seafaring nations have complements on board with a total of about 18. The Japanese are targeting to reduce the crew on board further to 12 per ship. And they have some experimental ships now sailing with a crew of 14. So quite obviously from the 1950s up to now there has been a lot of change in the nature of work on board ship requiring less seafarers because of technical advances in the equipment of the ship and in the cargo handling methods on board ship. So presently I believe that most of the Singapore ships that are sailing have crews in excess of 20.

As we are in a very competitive international activity, and if we want our sailors or seafarers to be able to compete internationally then they ought to be geared to be able to compete not with cheap labour in the developing countries, but with the trained skilled seafarers of the advanced countries. So unless the Committee pays some attention to this particular problem, I think the projection on the supply and demand of seafarers is going to be of value for a very short-term purpose, and not for the long-term. Sooner or later we have got to address this long-term problem of reduction of crew on board ship and the sooner we tackle this problem the better.

I would like to pose a particular question of one category of seafarers on board ship, and that is, the radio officers. There is going to be a new international distress system in operation for the maritime industry at the end of the decade. This system will not require employment of radio officers on board ship. Currently there is a howl of protest in Europe over this proposed move. We have in the Polytechnic a course for radio officers. So would it be advisable for us to keep on training radio officers knowing that these young men in their early 20s may find themselves out of a job when they reach their 30s? Again, I know that this is not within the direct purview of the Minister for Communications but perhaps he can give some sound advice to the Minister of Education so that it will be appropriately passed down to the Singapore Polytechnic.

Dr Yeo Ning Hong: Sir, I want to thank the Member for Kebun Baru for his very positive suggestion. His suggestion of training people for job blurring - I believe it is the same as job enlargement - is a good idea. The National Maritime Board has already decided to do training of this sort to ensure that future seamen will have ability to operate both on deck as well as in the engine room. This will give them greater ability to get jobs that are available to other less able seamen.

Sir, his other point refers to the training of radio officers by the Polytechnic. Sir, I understand from the Polytechnic that the courses run for radio officers are sufficiently broad. There is heavy emphasis on the latest in electronics and communications. Trainees with such backgrounds will find it possible to get jobs on land even if the world-wide market for such skills diminish. Therefore, there is not the danger of having large numbers of people with experience in this area not being able to get jobs. I believe the Polytechnic has looked into this problem very thoroughly and is of the opinion that their trainees will be in demand both at sea as well as on shore. 7.30 pm

Mr Lim Boon Heng: Sir, I thank the Minister for his answer and I beg leave to withdraw.

The sum of $103,423,620 for Head I ordered to stand part of the main Estimates.

The sum of $965,904,900 for Head I ordered to #and part of the Development Estimates.

Head R -

Mr Lim Boon Hong: Sir, I have an amendment under No. (4) which I propose to take under Amendment No. (1), with your permission.

The Chairman: You have only 10 minutes.

Mr Lim Boon Heng: Yes, thank you. Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead RA-01 Object Group 1100 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish, first, to commend the Ministry of Labour for its efforts in respect of positively monitoring the labour situation in Singapore. There was a report in the press recently that the Ministry of Labour officials have been visiting trade unions and employer groups to have closed-door discussions with them on the latest situation in Singapore. This series of discussions within closed-doors has actually been taking place for the last four years. This indicates that the Ministry of Labour has been actively going out to the grassroots to seek the views of the people concerned and not waiting passively in the offices for problems to arise. No doubt the action of the Ministry officials in the last four years has resulted in the unions and employer groups being able to express their views frankly with the Ministry and this feedback has helped the Ministry in its work and that has helped generally in our enjoying a relatively peaceful industrial relations climate. I would like to request the Ministry to keep up the good work and continue to positively hold discussions under such conditions with the trade unions and employer groups.

Next, Sir, I would like to turn to an issue which, in my opinion, has been somewhat of a storm in a tea-cup and this is the question of the 12-hour shift. The 12-hour shift, as we know, was brought to public attention by the then Minister of State for Labour in 1982. This was proposed with the intention of trying a new system of working that would help our industries to maximize the use of expensive equipment in the higher technology industries that we are attracting. When this issue came into public discussion, the NTUC made some points. Essentially, the NTUC is supportive of any new idea that may help us to become more productive or to maximize the use of expensive investments but the NTUC was of the view that the 12-hour shift, being a novel idea, particularly in the Singapore context, there should be caution and that employers who wish to embark on the 12-hour shift should, first of all, discuss the matter with the workers, and, if there is a union, to discuss it with the union and to implement it wisely.

There are of course a number of problems that may arise and that relates to the possible effects on the health of the workers. So a few companies started with this 12-hour shift system, and as far as our feedback is concerned there has been no major problem with the implementation of this scheme in those companies, although we detect a somewhat lukewarm response on the part of most employers because of other problems. One of them may have been that the productivity of workers may in fact go down for the types of jobs which they had. But recently there was a study made by a group of christian workers and their views have been aired publicly and there has been a little bit of debate on this subject to which the Ministry of Labour has contributed.

I would like to ask the Minister to state in this House briefly the situation as it stands and whether there is any need for further studies into this implementation of the 12-hour shift in companies in Singapore.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, on 10th March this year it was reported in our newspapers that the Central Provident Fund has relaxed some of its conditions under the Approved Residential Properties Scheme. I am sure all of us welcome the relaxation of these rules in order to facilitate the purchase and the improvements in terms of the homes that people can buy using the CPF savings.

I have a suggestion to make for the attention of the Minister for Labour in this regard. Up to this point, those who wish to make use of their CPF balances to buy private residential properties are allowed to make use of only up to 90% of what is available in their Ordinary Account, subject to an overall limit of 80% of the assessed valuation of the house. Sir, these two conditions appear rather onerous. In the first place, typically the assessed valuation of a property is less than the actual market price paid for it. In some cases, it may be 10-15% less. If you impose this 80% rule it means that the purchaser would have to be responsible for at least 30-35% of the amount of money involved in the actual purchase. Furthermore, for purchases of HDB and HUDC properties, the buyers are allowed to withdraw the total sum available in the Ordinary Account. I would like to urge the Minister to relax the 90% ruling because when we deal with sums in excess of, say, $100,000 or $200,000 balance in the CPF, leaving 10% of this in the Ordinary Account is quite a large sum of money and it would help those purchasers of private properties who use their CPF balances considerably if this ruling could be relaxed.

Next, may I turn to the table that the Minister circulated earlier on during Question time. By the time I got hold of it I could not get up to speak because the moment had passed. So may I offer a few comments on that table. Firstly, on the positive side, one should add that CPF savings are completely tax-exempt and those of us who are paying into our CPF accounts realize that Government has been quite generous in this regard. Furthermore, CPF savings and balances are also exempt from estate duty if they are less than $500,000 and the CPF interest which is paid is also tax-exempt. Having said this, I do have a few points to draw the attention of the Minister to.

Firstly, the tax-adjusted average 12-month deposit rate of commercial bank. I do not know what tax bracket he is using. Maybe he mentioned it but I failed to catch it. After the adjustment, it does appear that for most years the CPF interest rate is higher than what people would get commercially. But, on the other hand, there are a lot of small CPF savers who pay little or no income tax. Making this comparison really does not benefit them at all. I would like to urge the Minister to consider perhaps paying a higher rate of interest for small savers or allowing everybody's balances of, say, up to $50,000 or $100,000 to be paid a higher rate of interest and then a lower rate of interest for subsequent amounts in the CPF. This would make up for the distortions caused by tax rates. In other words, the point is small savers do not benefit from the tax exemption. Small savers do not have to pay taxes on the rate of interest which they earn on commercial deposits. I would like to urge that perhaps a higher rate of interest be paid for small savings.

A third area that I would like to comment on concerns the number of Singaporeans who from time to time desire to marry foreigners, especially work permit holders. We have been informed in this House that there are something like 150,000 work permit holders and from time to time, as a Member of Parliament, I do get problems brought to my attention by a Singaporean who desires to marry a foreigner who is on a work permit and permission is denied to the person. He or she is in tears but there seems to be nothing that can be done to help the couple to get married because of various restrictions. I do advise them to marry Singaporeans. In fact, my question is: What is wrong with Singaporeans? Why must you marry a foreigner? But then love transcends national boundaries and so there are problems created. I would like to hear from the Minister on this subject.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Sir, I nave an amendment under No. (11). The previous speaker has raised the issue of marriage. Can I speak now because I would like to speak on the same topic?

The Chairman: There are three other gentlemen who have filed amendments on the same subhead. If they are all speaking on the same subject, I would rather that you leave it until we come to Amendment No. (11).

The Acting Minister for Labour (Prof. S. Jayakumar): Let me first deal with the points made by the Member for Kebun Baru. I thank him for his encouraging comments on the visits to the unions and industries which the Ministry of Labour officials made and have made for the past three years. As he said, this is a means whereby the Ministry gets a feel of the pulse of the thinking of unionists, labour and, in our visits to the industries, the thinking of the management. We will continue to do this and the feedback is helpful to gauge reactions to existing problems and policies as well as to gauge reactions and feedbacks to proposals for changes to policies or proposals to amend laws. 7.45 pm

Next the comments that he made on the so-called 12-hour shift. This, as he has said, has been pretty well aired in the press. He is quite correct in stating that the Ministry of Labour has already responded and, indeed, at length to the various points, comments and concerns which have been expressed in the press. I am glad to note from him that the NTUC is basically supportive of new ideas, new methods and the caution that he has expressed, which I take it to be words of counsel concerning implementation of this proposal which is a point validly taken.

Sir, first, the so-called debate which has taken place in the press reveals a certain amount of misunderstanding and perhaps even a misconception over the term "12-hour shift", and this gives me an opportunity to explain. As we know, first, there is shift work which means work load whereby an employee has regularly rotated shifts which may vary, such as eight hours from 8.00 am to 4.00 pm in one week, 4.00 pm to midnight in another week, midnight to 8.00 am in the third week, and so it goes. Alternatively, shift work can also mean a 12-hour shift from 8.00 am to 8.00 pm, or 8.00 pm to 8.00 am. The frequency and the actual shift hours vary. That is shift work.

However, contrast this with the other situation where workers, in fact, work regular hours, the same hours all the time, which could be 12 hours, for instance, 7.00 am to 7.00 pm. Unlike the shift worker, their working hours are not changed. It may be better not to call this arrangement a 12-hour shift, to distinguish it from the shift work which I have mentioned, to refer to this as a 12-hour working day.

Now, the reasons why we have encouraged a 12-hour working day have already been spelt out in this House previously by the then Minister of State for Labour and summarized again in the replies of the Ministry of Labour to the press. Basically, it benefits the worker in the sense that he has more days (whole days in fact) free during the week, it benefits the company in the sense that they are enabled to maximize, and fully utilize the investments on expensive plants and machinery which have to be operated for many hours, sometimes even 24 hours. It benefits the nation as a whole in terms of increasing our productivity through the 12-hour working day.

What is important to stress is that when we talk of a 12-hour working day, it does not mean that the employee has to work 12 hours for each day of the week, because there are legal safeguards contained in the Employment Act, such as the maximum number of 44 hours per week, the safeguard of 72 hours of overtime work. These safeguards will apply to the 12-hour working day.

I agree with the points expressed by the Member for Kebun Baru that if employers wish to introduce this, it would be highly desirable for them to consult the workers before doing so. It may be that certain industries and certain types of work may be more amenable to the 12-h our working day than others. In fact, the Ministry has actively encouraged the employers to consult the workers.

As to the possible ill-effects that have surfaced so far, the Ministry has very closely monitored not only the experience so far in Singapore but we have also studied the situation and experiences of other countries. I am glad to inform the Member that, as he himself has pointed out, there have been no major problems. This is something which, of course, cannot be forced on the workers if the reaction is negative. It is something which benefits the worker. It may be useful in some industries. It may not be capable of implementation in all industries. So with those words and assurances that the Ministry will continue to encourage the management to seek the views of the workers, I hope that answers the points raised by the Member for Kebun Baru.

May I now turn to the points raised by the Member for Whampoa. He has raised three points, two relating to the Central Provident Fund and the third relating to the work permits policy concerning marriages between work permit holders and Singapore citizens.

First, concerning his request for a relaxation of the present restriction or ruling whereby, for approved residential property, a contributor may withdraw up to 90% of his Ordinary Account. First of all, I must stress that the policy of the CPF is clearly not to impede or to obstruct the purchasing of homes under the CPF schemes. In fact, it is actively encouraging many Singaporeans to own their homes. The figures show that an increasing number of Singaporeans are purchasing homes, either under the HDB scheme or under the ARPS.

Now, if there are restrictions, therefore, it is not so much to cause an obstacle but more to ensure that the contributor's risks, in terms of losing his old age savings, are minimized, particularly if the property market turns sour. As he has pointed out, there is a difference between the HDB purchase scheme and the private residential property scheme. But in working out these schemes, the CPF has to bear in mind several factors. In the first place, under the private residential property scheme, besides being a home ownership scheme, it is also an investment scheme in the sense that the contributor who utilizes CPF funds under the private residential property scheme need not necessarily be restricted to staying in the home. He can rent it out. So it can be a home ownership scheme. It can also be an investment scheme. The HDB purchasers, on the other hand, purchases the flats for home occupation only.

In the case of the HDB scheme, as they are generally in the lower income group, they would, therefore, need more of their CPF balances to help them own their homes. HDB flat prices are lower than those of private property. Therefore, the amount withdrawn to purchase an HDB flat is generally lower than that withdrawn to buy private property. We have also to bear in mind the fact that the prices and the types of property which would be covered by the approved residential property scheme vary considerably from a terrace house, semi-detached house to a bungalow and so on, and that the risks of fluctuations in property values are that much higher. So these restrictions of 90% and 80% of the assessed value, although they may seem to be restrictive from the viewpoint of the CPF, are measures which it takes to minimize the possibility of individuals putting all their eggs in one basket, to minimize the risks of their losing their old age savings should the property market suddenly take a radical downturn.

Let me assure the Member that these matters are constantly being reviewed by the CPF together with the Ministry. As he himself has pointed out, earlier this year we had reviewed the three-year time bar and we will continue to do so. For the time being, we are not persuaded that there are compelling reasons to remove this safeguard which, as I have said, is conceived more to protect the contributor than to pose obstacles in his way. I have taken note of the second point made by the Member for Whampoa where he said that, with regard to the information supplied earlier this afternoon, some of the smaller contributors may not benefit from the tax rate and asked us to consider the possibility of differentiated rates of interests for different contributors. Obviously, being an economist, he knows that this is a fairly complicated area and that any change to the CPF interest rates has a bearing and is related to other factors, such as the borrowings from the CPF, the rate of return it obtains from its investment and so on.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Prof. Jayakumar: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1984 to 31st March, 1985 and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.