1964, totalled 99, including rehearsals, etc. The

Member for Thomson has raised the question that we should even charge at all for the purpose of rehearsals. Members of the Opposition may be interested to know that these bookings included, among many others, a variety concert by the Yin Sin Old Boys' Association and another variety concert by the Chung San Huay Kuan, a comical play by the Singapore Film and Drama Institution. All these bookings, Mr Speaker, Sir, will show that the National Theatre provides an excellent place with excellent facilities for the promotion of culture at grass root level. Statements by the Opposition Members that the National Theatre has been misused are totally incorrect. The House may be interested to note the following breakdown of the bookings of the National Theatre in two periods from 1st of June to 31st of October, 1964, and 1st of November to 31st of December, 1964, in respect of Malay, Chinese, English and other variety performances, meetings, congregations and exhibitions, etc. From the 1st of June to 31st of October, 1964: Malay 3, Teochew 2, Mandarin 5, Cantonese 2, English 9, Variety 12, Meetings and Congregations 13, Exhibitions 5. From 1st of November to 31st of December, 1964: Malay 2, Cantonese 1, English 4, Variety 2, Meetings and Congregations 2, and Exhibitions 2. From this you will note, Mr Speaker, Sir, that the National Theatre caters for activities of all the major language streams in the State. I believe that Mem bers of the Opposition should be satisfied by now that the National Theatre is not what they consider to be a project of wasting Government money and throwing public funds into the sea, as stated by the Member for Thomson.

On the question of the stage being too big for Chinese operatic performances and too small for Western performances, Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid that this is a condition with which it is very difficult for all of us to comply. I think it is equally difficult for engineers and architects of the advanced West to provide a compromise solution. No doubt the pool for the musicians is considered to be slightly small - but it is not uncomfortable - and we shall look into the question whether it needs to be -extended or not.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I think Members of the House are also aware of the nature of the performances, particularly Chinese operatic performances, where the stage requirements are comparatively very small as compared to Western performances like ballet and spectacular variety shows, etc. We can remedy this by some arrangement of the stage. It is not possible for us to have two different stages, one for typical Chinese operatic performances, and another for Western performances. This is a minor point. The Member for Thomson, who is very much interested in cultural activities, will agree with me that such a position can be altered merely by an arrangement of the stage.

May I come back again, Mr Speaker, Sir, to the question of charges? As I have said earlier - I have referred to the example of the charges levied for the Singapore Badminton Hall - it should be noted that the National Theatre has a total accommodation of 3,420 ---

Mr Lim Huan Boon: 3,421.

4.15 p.m.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: 3,421 - thank you. This very good proposition is in a smaller hall. Charges for admission will inevitably have to be increased to an amount which will not be voluntarily accepted by people intending to attend the show. In the case of the National Theatre, the number of seats is 3,420. The Member for Bukit Merah says that the admission charges can be reduced to a figure acceptable to the public without causing any extra financial burden to them. I can assure Members of the Opposition that most of the organisers and associations that stage shows in the National Theatre do make some profit if they levy admission charges.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the discussion is on Contributions and Charitable Allowances to charitable organisations, but the Member for Bukit Merah has earlier touched on the question of television. With your permission, Sir, may I en lighten him a little on this subject? As we know, television is still in its infancy here. Nowithstanding this, the standard of performance and telecasting, as we see in our homes and in public places, I think, should not receive any adverse criticism. It is not that we do not receive any constructive criticism but we have done our best to satisfy the audience, and television is still ---

The Chairman: Order. I regret to say that the Member has had his 15 minutes.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, I was surprised to learn from the Government benches that since the completion of the National Theatre more than a year ago, there were only 99 bookings out of more than 400 days and that includes bookings for rehearsals. In other words, out of every one-day booking there are three or four days ---

Mr Fong Sip Chee: On a point of clarification, with your permission, Sir.

The Chairman: If the Member will give way.

Mr Ong Eng Guan resumed his seat.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, the bookings received were for the period from 2nd June, 1964, to 20th October, 1964. If the Member for Hong Lim requires statistical periods prior to that, I shall undertake to forward them to him.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: The point I am trying to raise is this. We have all these big buildings in town - the National Theatre which is the first open amphitheatre meant for the masses where no charges for admission would be made. It was first proposed to be built on the Kallang Park site, but later it was shifted to King George V Park where the background was quite suitable for an open amphitheatre, something like the Hollywood Bowl. Then later, as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture has explained to us, there was such an enthusiastic response - which is quite contrary to what the Member for Thomson has said; he says that teachers were asked to make compulsory "voluntary" contributions - that we are still short of $400,000. Perhaps in the first wave of response the Government introduced a dollar-for-dollar brick donation. It was so good and there were promises, but they were not kept. That was why the Government had to come back to this House for a further $400,000 which had earlier been taken from the Contingency Fund to complete the National Theatre.

Mr Speaker, do you remember the story of the Victoria Theatre? It was completed in the same way. The Government every time came back to the City Council for additional funds - $¼ million, $100.000 more in order to complete this particular phase and that particular phase. Mr Speaker, we have too many buildings in the City. The Victoria Memorial Hall is always empty. Then we have the Victoria Theatre and now we have the National Theatre. Very soon we are going to have another big theatre - the Trade Union House - and we will have all these white elephants. Do you remember, Sir, that about two years ago when the Government was quite shaky, each of the Ministers tried to build something? The Deputy Prime Minister wanted to build a car park which, I hear, is now more than half vacant. The former Minister for Labour wanted to build a Trade Union House costing $4½ million so that he could commemorate the day when he would no more be a Minister but sharing the Tourist Promotion Board in introducing fair dames. Each Minister vied with the other to build the biggest building in the city. I do not know eventually which one will build the biggest - the National Theatre to commemorate the work of the Minister for Culture, or the Trade Union House to commemorate the work of the former Minister for Labour. What we want, Sir, is not more of these buildings. What we want is more personal assistance for the poor, more unemployment relief, more hospitals, and more care for the underprivileged people. The money expended on these buildings, which is about $10 million, is wasted. It is not only the capital cost which the public are being asked to pay, but also the regular maintenance cost to keep these high buildings in good condition, to keep the staff. The National Theatre has over 3,000 seats but there is hardly an occasion when it is filled up unless there is a free show and free tickets are given just before the elections to commemorate the so-called South-East Asia Cultural Festival in order to make a big impact on the population. Otherwise, Sir, if the public are expected to pay, there is hardly any occasion when the seats are filled. Mr Speaker, Sir, it is a waste of money. This is another white elephant that we are asked to pay.

Mr Ho See Beng (Bras Basah): Mr Speaker, Sir, in any country in the world Government have built edifices not with the object of making money. Otherwise it becomes commercialised. Therefore, the Government have built the Trade Union House to assist the workers and not with the object of making money. Likewise the National Theatre. I think the Government have done the right thing and we know that we are in the right and we will proceed with it irrespective of irrelevant criticism.

Inche Yaacob Bin Mohamed Al-Haj: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, originally I had no intention to speak, but I was surprised to hear the Member for Hong Lim saying that he has his doubts about the existence of the National Theatre. The Member for Hong Lim should know that the National Theatre project commenced when he was the Minister for National Development. And he now raises this question. I do not know how he stood at that time and how and where he stands now. Similarly with the Member for Bukit Merah, when he spoke just now. The plan of the National Theatre can be truly said to have been agreed to by all the 13 Members of the Government who defected to the Barisan Sosialis. They now come back and say that they are dissatisfied.

About the misgivings of the Member for Hong Lim, I am quite sure that in his heart he is satisfied. At that time he opened up many parks like Kallang Park and Hong Lim Park. In only one constituency was a park established, i.e. Hong Lim Park. There is no such park in the Southern Islands known as the Southern Island Park. Therefore, he is satisfied that there should be no National Theatre because of the existence already of Hong Lim Park.

On the subject of the growth and development of yellow culture, the definition of "yellow culture" is wide and it is incorrect to link it with the National Theatre project. Can the story depicting the life of a youth be described as yellow culture? To the Member for Bukit Merah, let me say that if all the characters in the story are males, I am quite sure there will be not one single person to see the story on T.V. Likewise if all the characters are females, then there will be no audience. So there must be representation from both sexes in any play. If there is any story about love, it is common to have such representation. Human beings cannot divorce themselves from love. So this definition of "yellow culture" is very wide indeed. I feel it is better to be a little yellowish than reddish.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, first, allow me to touch on the question of yellow culture. It has been given so much importance by the Member for Bukit Merah and the Member for Thomson. In the last Assembly you will remember the charitable nature of the Government. We said to them, "Please supply us with what you think ought to be televised, what kind of books you think ought to be published, or to be banned by the Government." We offered this to the Opposition in the hope that we would later receive some concrete and constructive suggestions from them. But unfortunately we did not receive anything, particularly from the Member for Thomson. Today he has again talked about yellow culture, undesirable films, undesirable publications, and so on. So we do make the Opposition an offer once again now -"Please give us a complete list of the films and publications or anything that you consider to be yellow culture, so that we can look into them, and will probably ban them."

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Hong Lim has referred to the National Theatre as a white elephant. I have made it clear earlier that the number of bookings received and the manner the Na tional Theatre has been used is proof that the Theatre is practical and beneficial to members of the public.

4.30 p.m.

I agree with the Member for Hong Lim that the National Theatre must be meant for the masses. As it is now, open-air theatres can also bear part of this responsibility, such as the Crawford Park open-air theatre and the Hong Lim open-air theatre. Mr Speaker, Sir, the National Theatre has been referred to as a white elephant. I would refer to Hong Lim Green as a retarded elephant. I remember, Mr Speaker, Sir, when Hong Lim was being built, the Member for Hong Lim put so much enthusiasm into it. If he so desires, then I will relate to this House the particulars in detail how Hong Lim Green was built. Sir, if I were to go into this question, it would take up the valuable time of the House, because the Member for Hong Lim ---

The Chairman: Order. We are not on Hong Lim Green now. We are on the National Theatre.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: Mr Speaker, the Member for Hong Lim has said that the National Theatre is no doubt spectacular but it has not been put to good use. We do know, Mr Speaker, that there is one red elephant in Singapore. The red elephant I am referring to is the entrance to Kallang Park. I say "red" because it is an eye-sore. The entrance to Kallang Park was erected without any proper planning and consideration. As a result, the traffic in that part of Mountbatten Road has not been as smooth and as free a flow as we have planned. So the entrance to Kallang Park is a red elephant. If he thinks that there is any more white elephant in the State, I think I can make further references to sonic other elephants.

Mr Speaker will also know that the Member for Hong Lim tries to recapture the nostalgic good old days of the City Council. But the Government's responsibility is not merely kicking up rows in Assembly sittings or at City Council meetings. Our responsibility is to do solid work, so that we will raise the living standard of the people not only in respect of clothing, schools, houses, clinics, medical attention, but also to inculcate into the people the value of democracy, the sense of to getherness, and to uphold the integrity of the country. I believe we can bring about these things through cultural activities. No doubt it will take a long time. But we are positive that the unity of the people can be brought about through such exchanges.

Coming back to the National Theatre, Mr Speaker, Sir, I am sure we are aware that prior to its erection, there was not a single place in the State that was suitable for operatic performances. As a result, cultural troupes from other countries visiting Singapore frequently found difficulty in getting a proper place and a proper sound system. The Victoria Theatre, which the Member for Hong Urn has referred to earlier, has only 904 seats. But the National Theatre with 3,400 seats, proper public address system, is an ideal place for variety shows, or performances by local associations, civic organisations, etc. The Bad minton Hall hitherto was supposed to be the only ideal place. But it was not erected for that purpose and, with this in view, we erected the National Theatre to provide artistes, both local and foreign, with a proper place which is comfortable for them to perform.

Mr Chia Thye Poh: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, I wish to touch on a few points raised by the Party in power just now. The Deputy Prime Minister has mentioned that some of the Barisan Members supported the project of the National Theatre but now we have turned round to criticise the National Theatre. We do not object to the build ing of the National Theatre to promote our cultural activities as such. We supported the project of the National Theatre. But after the building of the Na tional Theatre, the question arises whether such a purpose can be achieved by this National Theatre, and whether there have not been difficulties and defects in its construction. That was the point my colleagues, the Member for Bukit Merah and the Member for Thomson, have raised just now. But the Members opposite were not able to give a proper reply to our criticism. In the past, before the Members of the Barisan Sosialis left the P.A.P., donations from the public were very good. The response was very good. Ever since we left the P.A.P., the donations have become unsatisfactory. My colleague has pointed this out just now. If the response is not good, the blame can only be put on the Government, because it has now monopolised all cultural activities. It has not managed well the donations to the National Theatre Fund.

On the question of yellow culture, they say that we must not presume that when there are members of the two sexes in the picture, that is yellow culture. Such a definition of yellow culture is too simple. What we mean by yellow culture is that some of the items are of low taste. It does not mean that we must not have pictures of both sexes. They have not a clear definition of yellow culture. Therefore, their rebuttal has been childish. Another Government Member has asked us to give a list of "yellow" pictures and publications. If the Government is serious in wanting to accept the opinion of the people and wanting to ban yellow culture, of course, it can be done. But ever since the P.A.P. came to power, they have been pursuing a policy of suppressing healthy cultural activities. If the Government is sincere in wanting to hear the views of the people, it can very well set up a committee where the various cultural organisations can put forward their views. We will give our views at such a committee. This is my reply to the speech made by the Government Member just now.

Mr Chow Chiok Hock (Ulu Pandan): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, a little while ago, the Member for Thomson raised a question. He said that during the year the Ministry of Education has asked for donations from the teachers. He said that there were two forms, one was for voluntary donations and the other was to give the reason for not wanting to donate $10. He blamed this on the Ministry of Education.

I wish to give a very simple explanation with regard to this matter. Those who did not want to donate would not be dismissed because of their unwillingness to contribute. This has nothing to do with those teachers who were dismissed in December. The Minister himself has given them the reason why they were dismissed. There is a Trust for the funds of the National Theatre. This Trust comprises all the civic leaders. Therefore, this National Theatre Trust Fund can ask for donations from people from all walks of life. Therefore, the National Theatre Trust Fund can very well ask for donations from the people. The forms given to the schools for filling in the names of the donors and the amount of the donation were not chopped with the chop of the Ministry of Education. This was within the jurisdiction of the National Theatre Trust Fund. Donations from the teachers was one of the ways to raise funds for the National Theatre. It was not proper to ask for donations in this way and the Minister himself also warned the National Trust. This shows that the Minister himself was fair in dealing with this matter.

4.45 p.m.

The Chairman: Any more speakers who wish to speak on the motion? Does the mover of the motion wish to withdraw the motion, or does he wish a vote to be taken? He wants a vote to be taken?

Mr Lim Huan Boon indicated assent.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The sum of $393,720.96 for Head 24 ordered to stand part of the First Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure for 1964.

Question, "That the sum of $393,720.96 shall be supplied to the Government under the head of expenditure for the public services shown in the First Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure for