ORGANISATIONS SETTING UP POLITICALLY MOTIVATED EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES

Mr Chiam See Tong asked the Minister for Education whether he allows organisations to set up educational facilities, such as kindergartens, whose objectives are not purely educational but are also politically motivated.

The Minister for Education (Mr Lee Yock Suan): Mr Speaker, Sir, under the Education Act, my Ministry will allow an organisation to register and set up a school provided it satisfies certain conditions. Generally, the requirements relate to the reliability and capability of the organisation and its management, the provision of safe and adequate premises for the school, the qualifications of the staff, and the school curriculum. The school has also to ensure that its activities are not detrimental to the public or the pupils.

Mr Chiam See Tong (Potong Pasir): I am certain that the Minister did hear the announcement of the Prime Minister at the last General Election that if the constituency did not support the PAP the kindergarten will be closed. Does the Minister, in fact, view that as using the kindergarten set up by the PAP Foundation as a political tool of the Party?

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, I believe that the kindergartens referred to are those run by the PAP Community Foundation, not by the PAP. The PAP Community Foundation (PCF) is a charitable organisation to promote the welfare and interest of Singaporeans. One of its objectives is to foster, develop and improve education of all kinds, including the organising and running of kindergarten classes.

As to whether the PCF will cut back on the numbers of students in certain sectors, it is up to the PCF to decide, based on their own resource constraints and their planning. It has nothing to do with the Government.

Mr Chiam See Tong: I am afraid the Minister has not answered my question. It is a clear-cut case and it is known to the public. He can look up the Straits Times of 31st August 1991, and it was stated that if the constituents did not vote PAP, the kindergartens will be cut back. That is a clear-cut case of using educational facilities for a political purpose. Does the Minister agree with me on that point first?

Mr Lee Yock Suan: To my knowledge, there was a recent announcement that the PCF has to cut back the kindergartens to some extent in certain wards. This was because of resource constraints. Anyway, the question should be properly directed to the PCF because it is a matter for PCF to decide.

Mr Chiam See Tong: No, I am asking the Minister, from what the public knows, from what the public has seen in the papers, are the facilities of the PCF being used for a political purpose? I am asking him that now, yes or no?

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, I believe Mr Goh Chok Tong was speaking in his capacity as the Leader of the PAP. Of course, the PAP is the one that set up the PCF. But the PCF will have to decide what are its plans, in view of its resource constraints.

Mr Chiam See Tong: I will ask the Minister now, from what he knows, from what he reads in the papers of 31st August 1991, does he view that announcement of cutting back on the kindergarten facilities in Opposition wards if they should vote Opposition members as a political announcement? Does he not agree on that?

Mr Lee Yock Suan: I think whether it is a political issue or not is a matter of opinion.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Do not evade the question.

Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Chiam, would you allow the Minister to complete his answer?

Mr Chiam See Tong: It is a point of order, Sir. The Minister refuses to answer the question. It is very simple. He can give a "Yes" or a "No". But he is skirting around and refusing to answer the question.

Mr Speaker: Mr Chiam, what is your supplementary question?

Mr Chiam See Tong: It is very simple. I am asking him whether or not the announcement by the Prime Minister on 31st August 1991 that constituencies that vote Opposition MPs will have their kindergarten facilities cut back - and everybody knows about that - is a political one. I am asking the Minister whether or not the educational facilities of the PCF have been used for a political purpose. Yes or no? Do not skirt the question.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: It is still a matter of opinion. I think this was done during an election campaign. The PAP had the right to tell the public at that time that if they elect an Opposition Member, then obviously they cannot expect the PAP MP to serve them in the same way. If the PCF is set up by the PAP, obviously it must look after the interests of its founders first.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: Just now the Minister mentioned that the PAP Community Foundation is different from the PAP.

Mr Speaker: Mr Low, are you asking a question?

The Leader of the House (Mr Wong Kan Seng): Point of order, Mr Speaker. I think Mr Chiam is asking a question about the PCF. The Minister for Education is not in charge of the PCF. He should direct his question to the PCF.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Sir, may I answer the Minister on that point?

Mr Speaker: No, you are supposed to ask supplementary questions only.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Is the Minister above Standing Orders?

Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Chiam, this is not a debate. This is Question Time.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Sir, is the Minister above Standing Orders? He stood up to clarify a point and I think the Opposition has the right to answer that point. Otherwise, it will be seen as if he is right and we are wrong.

Mr Speaker: During Question Time, the Member has the right to ask questions.

Mr Chiam See Tong: But he did not ask question. He clarified the point.

Mr Speaker: He rose on a point of order. Could both of you resume your seats?

Mr Chiam See Tong: All right, I will ask a supplementary question.

Mr Speaker: Yes, ask your supplementary question.

Mr Chiam See Tong: I will ask the Minister for Education whether or not the kindergartens set up by the PCF is under his jurisdiction.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: The answer is a clear no. The Ministry is responsible for approving and registering schools and education centres. But the kindergartens of the PCF are run by the PCF. So his question should really be directed to the PCF.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Are the kindergartens of the PCF set up under the Education Act?

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Yes, the kindergartens of the PCF are approved by my Ministry under the Education Act.

Mr Chiam See Tong: If the kindergartens of the PCF are set up under the Education Act, are not these educational facilities then under your jurisdiction? Because you do supervise all educational facilities set up under the Education Act.

The Minister for Law and Minister for Home Affairs (Prof. S. Jayakumar): Sir, may I raise a point of order because there are so many other Questions and, in the interest of the despatch of parliamentary business, we should conduct our proceedings orderly. The question really is whether the supplementary questions by Mr Chiam are properly put. Standing Orders No. 18 says:

'(1) Questions may be put to Ministers relating to -

(a) affairs within their official functions; or

(b) Bills, motion or other public matters connected with the business of Parliament for which such Ministers are responsible.'

Mr Chiam maintains that the PCF kindergartens are under the charge of the Minister for Education solely by reason of the fact that the Ministry approves and registers them. Supposing there is a kindergarten run by the YMCA in Potong Pasir. It is approved by the Ministry of Education. But because of some difference of opinion with Mr Chiam, the YMCA decides to pull off, does it mean the Minister for Education must answer why the YMCA has pulled it off? Obviously, no.

Mr Chiam See Tong rose ---

Mr Speaker: Mr Chiam, I have to make a ruling on the point of order first. I will accept the point of order that has been raised. Do you have any more supplementary questions pertaining to this topic?

Mr Chiam See Tong: Can I rise on a point of order?

Mr Speaker: What is your point of order?

Mr Chiam See Tong: As regards the example given by the Minister for Home Affairs, if it is set up by the YMCA, fair enough, the Minister may not ---

Mr Speaker: That is not a point of order, Mr Chiam.

Mr Chiam See Tong: It is a point of order to answer his query.

Mr Speaker: Mr Chiam, I have already made a ruling on the point of order and it is not a subject of debate.

Mr Chiam See Tong: The point of order is that these educational organisations, ie, the kindergartens set up by the PCF, are set up under the Education Act.

Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Chiam, I think you do not know what is a point of order. A point of order has been made. I have made a ruling. There is no more debate on this. Do you have any more supplementary questions to the question that you have asked?

Mr Chiam See Tong: I will ask a supplementary question. Does the Minister know that in the exercise for enrolment of K1 and K2 at Potong Pasir, the organisers of these kindergartens asked whether or not their parents are affiliated to any political body? Does the Minister know that the people in charge at that kindergarten asked this particular question? Does the Minister know that?

Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Chiam, your question is not relevant. Do you have any more supplementary questions?

Mr Chiam See Tong: All right. I will tell the Minister ---

Mr Speaker: Mr Chiam, if you have no more questions, I will ask you to resume your seat.

Mr Chiam See Tong: I have supplementary questions. I will tell the Minister now ---

Mr Speaker: Mr Chiam, there are a lot of Questions on the Order Paper today. You had a long time on the floor already. I shall now allow you one more supplementary question. Now, ask your supplementary question.

Mr Chiam See Tong: All right, one last question. It is a pity, Sir, because I think we do owe a duty to the people of Singapore to let them know what is exactly happening.

Mr Speaker: Mr Chiam, are you asking a question or do you want to engage in a debate?

Mr Chiam See Tong: I will ask a supplementary question. Does the Minister allow an educational organisation, like the PCF kindergarten, when enroling its pupils, to allow the organisers of that educational organisation to ask parents whether they are members of a political party, and the enrolment of the child to that kindergarten is based on the answers given? Does he allow that?

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have already stated that my Ministry approves and registers schools. To do so is to make sure that the schools are properly run and they have proper facilities and so on. But the Ministry is not responsible for running the school. The Ministry does not decide whether the pupils should be from a particular denomination.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Just answer the question.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: For example, a church may require that its students come from church members. The Ministry does not, for example, control private schools. [Interruptions.]

Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Chiam, I must warn you that you are disrupting the proceedings of the House by constantly interrupting the answers given by the Minister. I suggest that you listen to the answer before saying anything else. You may continue, Mr Lee.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: I was trying to explain to Mr Chiam and to Members that although the Ministry registers the schools, it does not run the schools. For example, it does not run the private schools and there are many private schools. In the same way, the PCF kindergarten is a private school. So it is not for the Ministry to say whether they have certain conditions for their enrolment or whether they should expand the capacity in certain places. These are entirely matters for the management of the kindergartens. In the same way, for example, the Ministry of Finance registers companies, but it does not interfere in the management of the companies.