MINOR OFFENCES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Order for Second Reading read.

The Chief Secretary (Mr W. A. C. Goode): Sir, I move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This is a Bill, Sir, to assist the police in dealing with secret society gangsters. It is unfortunately notorious that secret society gangsters here in Singapore depend on violence, or the threat of violence, for their existence and for their power over the unfortunate people who get into their clutches. They get their funds by threats, and to be effective, threats have got to be backed up by deeds. So it is that victims who fail to pay extortion money are brutally assaulted, stabbed and even murdered. Further, these gangs have to fight for their own existence in the jungle war that goes on between rival gangs to secure control of particular places or particular rackets. Before the recent police campaign against secret societies, these gang fights and threats of gang fights were almost daily occurrences. In the three months April, May and June, there were no less than 70 occasions on which there was either a gang fight or the threat of a gang fight, and in these fights, as I think it is well known, all sorts of vicious weapons are used - knives, bottles, knuckledusters, bicycle chains, iron bars and other such things. The victims are very often assaulted in the dark or in a crowded public place where the thugs can easily make their escape. But it does very frequently happen that the police, getting information that a gang fight is about to take place, are able to arrive at the scene and prevent the fight actually developing, even though the strong-armed thugs are there with their weapons ready. But if no breach of the peace has actually occurred, it is not possible to charge these thugs in court, and it is to remedy that difficulty that this Bill is brought to the Assembly.

This Bill will make it an offence to carry, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, a knife over 2½ inches long or any other offensive weapon. That means that if the police can arrest these thugs who have gathered for a gang fight and find them in possession of these vicious weapons, they will be able to charge them in court and, on conviction, have them sent to prison. Now, unfortunately in these affrays we do not get much help from the victims or even from bystanders who may witness what is going on. They are, unfortunately, too frightened of the brutal power of the secret society gangs to come and give evidence in court, and in order to help successful prosecution, this Bill therefore puts the burden of proof on an accused person to explain why he was carrying a weapon at that particular time and place.

I am sure, Sir, that any measure designed to assist the police in dealing with this menace of gangsterism will command the full support of this House and of the public. But it may be that Members feel some uneasiness that innocent persons may be put in jeopardy by the presumption contained in the Bill making it necessary for a person, found in possession of one of these weapons in a public place, to explain his lawful authority or reasonable excuse for carrying that weapon. I trust, Sir, that this uneasiness is not really justified. After all, an accused person in those circumstances has only got to show that he has some reasonable cause to be carrying a knife. Few of the weapons that we have in mind are such that they will not themselves raise a strong presumption of malicious purpose; but in the event of a law-abiding citizen being found carrying a knife in a public place, he has only to show that he had some reasonable cause to be carrying that knife, for example, that he needed it in the course of his business, or that he was on his way to use it for some lawful purpose, and he must then be released. I would hope, Sir, that we could, with confidence, rely on the police and the courts to judge, on the evidence and the circumstances, whether or not a person carrying one of these weapons had discharged his duty of explaining why. I myself, Sir, will have every confidence that we can confidently rely on the courts to safeguard the liberty of the law-abiding citizen. It seems to me that provided innocent persons do not go round carrying weapons of this sort without good reason, then they have nothing to fear from this Bill. Much, of course, will depend on the circumstances, and should it unfortunately be the practice for a number of persons to carry knives about with them, by day or even by night, for no proper purpose, then they must stop doing so. I think it is right and proper that people should not be in the habit of carrying knives on their persons for presumably the purpose of attacking other people.

But, Sir, even if there is some uneasiness and even if some embarrassment or indignity is caused to the law-abiding citizen by being called upon to explain why he is carrying a weapon, then I would urge that that should be accepted in good part as a small price to pay for helping to keep our streets and public places free from these violent and often deadly affrays and for, making them safe for the law-abiding citizen to go about his lawful occasions without fear for his person or his property. Sir, I beg to move.

Question proposed.

Mr Lim Choon Mong (Serangoon): Mr Speaker, Sir, when this Bill was received by me I indeed felt very uneasy about it. I have heard the explanation by the Hon. the Chief Secretary about the type of people the Government is after. We do want to support the Government in any measures against unlawfulness, but we must bear in mind that we must always protect the innocent people and, wherever possible, to exclude them from any inconvenience. This Bill, when it is passed, will make the police the sole authority to determine whether a person is, in fact, guilty or not guilty of the offence. New section 24 (1) of the Minor Offences Ordinance reads:

"Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse the proof whereof shall lie on him has with him any knife or offensive weapon in any public road..." shall be guilty of the offence.

On the question of lawful authority, it would be difficult to imagine that any person who carries a weapon would want a permit from the police. That rules out "lawful authority". The term "reasonable excuse" can be interpreted in many different ways by different people. Is it reasonable for a person to carry a knife in an omnibus after he has bought it? If a policeman should find that he has a knife, the first thing he would do is to haul that person into a police station and thereafter the poor chap will have a lot of explanations to make. I am thinking particularly of those people who buy knives for kitchen purposes.

I would ask Government to look at the problem from this angle: that a person with a knife on him does not necessarily mean that he will want to cause some other people voluntary hurt; but if a person has a knife concealed on him, then there is reasonable suspicion that that knife is being carried for unlawful purposes.

Again, there are many people in Singapore who have to carry knives about in the course of their work. I cite the case of Harbour Board labourers. In the process of loading or unloading, they might have to cut boards or string or ropes with their knives which, I would say, are necessarily of a length of 2½ inches or a bit more. Such knives are usually carried about by the labourers with their bunches of keys and other working tools, and it would be difficult for the person concerned to detach his knife when he is not on duty. Probably because of long habit, he might be carrying the knife with him and he may be arrested off duty. I think this Bill is going to put such types of people to a great deal of inconvenience. If the Bill, however, is passed and the spirit in which it is passed is not clearly stated to the police, what I am afraid of is that there will be a great deal of petty tyranny. That should be avoided as far as possible in order that the right of the innocent citizen to go about his lawful business is safeguarded.

Mr R. Jumabhoy (Telok Ayer): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to elaborate a little on the point raised by the Member for Serangoon. I think there are very few in this Assembly who have much intimate knowledge of workers as to how they work. There are thousands of workers in Singapore who do carry, for the purposes of their work, a whistle, a knife and a long needle and these people can be found in the Havelock, Tanjong Pagar and the Boat Quay, Telok Ayer, areas. If the Bill is passed as it is, thousands of workers can be stopped by the police and taken to police stations and, after giving their explanations, they may or may not be released. We do not know, but they may even be harassed. What is the protection provided for these thousands of honest workers in this Bill? I am not against the spirit of the Bill, but I want the Hon. the Chief Secretary to tell us how these workers can be protected from arrest and from being disturbed by the police.

Mr Lim Koon Teck (Paya Lebar): Mr Speaker, Sir, at first glance this Bill appears to be very onerous on the public in that the onus is now thrown on the person carrying a knife in a public place to prove a reasonable excuse for having that knife with him. In view, however, of the explanation given by the Hon. the Chief Secretary that this Bill is required because of the recent violent outbreaks by the secret societies in the form of extortion, gang fights and intimidation, I do not think we should oppose the passage of the Bill, except to warn Government that, being given such wide powers, it should use them wisely and carefully.

Mr R. C. H. Lim (Nominated): Mr Speaker. Sir, I would like to draw the attention of the previous speakers to the definition of "knife":

"'knife' means any knife whether clasp knife or otherwise, the blade of which is more than two and a half inches in length and which is capable, in the opinion of the Court, of being used as a stabbing or cutting instrument and includes any sword, dagger, blade or similar instrument adapted for use as a cutting or stabbing instrument;".

It does not mean that if you carry a pocket penknife, you will be charged.

Also, after having heard the Member for Serangoon and the Member for Telok Ayer, it seems that they do not have sufficient confidence in the police force. We should have confidence in our police force. We should also assume that members of the police force are intelligent enough not to arrest persons, ordinarily good citizens, carrying a little knife in their pockets.

Mr R. Jumabhoy: Sir, on a point of order. That is an allegation I have not made.

Mr Speaker: Is it a point of order?

Mr R. Jumabhoy: It is a point of explanation, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Will the hon. Member please make his point of explanation in the proper way, that is, if the hon. Mr R. C. H. Lim will give way?

Mr R. C. H. Lim resumed his seat.

Mr R. Jumabhoy: Sir, I do not know why the nominated Member Mr R. C. H. Lim should say that we have no confidence in the police. We have never said that. Ordinarily, a policeman is not a well educated person - do not forget that.

Mr Speaker: Order.

Mr R. Jumabhoy: That is so!

Mr Speaker: Order. Hon. Members must remember that they must address their remarks to the Chair.

Mr R. C. H. Lim: Mr Speaker, Sir, just the other day I bought a small knife for the purpose of fishing and I do not visualise at any time that a policeman, finding me carrying a knife and not dressed as I am now but as a coolie for fishing purposes, would arrest me; and if I were arrested, my explanation, I am sure, would be accepted. So there is no reason why there should be any fear in anybody's heart that the police will not act with intelligence.

Mr Goode rose -

Mr Speaker: Mr Chief Secretary, in reply?

Mr Goode: Sir, I would, in reply, like to say that we on this side of the House do have the greatest sympathy for some of the expressions of uneasiness which have been raised by the other side.

The Member for Serangoon spoke of the word "inconvenience". I think, in my speech moving this Bill, I did say that I hoped inconvenience would be accepted. But it is not only the police who will be the judges. After all, if a person is arrested, he has also the courts which will consider his case. I have no doubt, as I have said in moving my motion, that the courts will be quick to safeguard the liberties of the innocent citizen. Most of the examples which were quoted, such as labourers who need knives for their work, and who may be going to or from their work, would, I hope, be quite clearly covered by the "reasonable excuse" which is given in the Bill.

It may perhaps comfort Members if I inform the House that we have taken the substance of this provision from Ceylon. The Ceylon Government introduced, quite a number of years ago, .a similar provision in their Minor Offences Ordinance, and at that time they specified a blade length of 3½ inches in a knife. We are advised from Ceylon that that provision had an extremely good effect on decreasing the use of knives by criminals, and their experience was such that they have since amended their law and reduced the length of the knife to two inches, which is an even shorter length than that we are giving here. It would appear, from what we can gather from Ceylon, that the police have not abused the power and that it has achieved its effect in stopping the use of knives and other weapons in these brawls.

Naturally we would like, if we could, to meet some of the points which have been raised. For example, it was suggested that we should relate the offence only to a concealed weapon, but I am afraid that would raise great difficulties because I do not see how we could define "concealed". Would a weapon carried in a pocket or in a sheath or on a belt be concealed or not? I would have said that it would be concealed, so that if, by putting in "concealed", you still brought within the law weapons carried in pockets or sheaths or on belts or under jackets, you would not, in fact, make any very tangible change in the position. But I think all I can do, Sir, is to give an assurance to the House that the police will be instructed to use every endeavour to see that this power is not used to harass innocent citizens or to cause vexation. The power is given to them to deal with secret society gangsters, and it should be directed at them; and I have every confidence they will do that. In the event of there being any abuse of the power, I am sure that both hon. Members here and the courts will raise complaints of which we shall take notice. In the meantime, I do ask the House to give us this extra power.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.