STATEMENT OF EXCESS FOR 1963 AND FIRST SUPPLEMENTARY DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR 1966

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

3.31 p.m.

The Chairman: The Statement of Excess for 1963 is contained in Paper Cmd. 23 of 1964, as amended by the Corrigenda contained in Paper Cmd. 13 of 1966. The Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Statement of Excess is contained in Paper Parl. 8 of 1966.

The summary of totals is on page 3 of Paper Cmd. 23 of 1964, subject to the following alterations in accordance with Paper Cmd. 13 of 1966: the provision to be voted for Head 37 - Accountant General - should read "$34,773.74" instead of "$34,958.19", and the total sum to be voted for all the heads of expenditure in the Statement of Excess should read "$36,707.05" instead of "$36,891.50".

No notice of amendment has been received.

Head 30 -

The sum of $17.13 for Head 30 ordered to stand part of the Statement of Excess for 1963.

Head 31 -

The sum of $1,916.18 for Head 31 ordered to stand part of the Statement of Excess for 1963.

Head 37 -

The sum of $34,773.74 for Head 37 ordered to stand part of the Statement of Excess for 1963.

Question, "That the sum of $36,707.05 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Statement of Excess for 1963 contained in Paper Cmd. 23 of 1964, as amended by Paper Cmd. 13 of 1966", put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported.

3.34 p.m.

The Chairman: The First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1966 contained in Paper Cmd. 24 of 1966. The summary of totals is on page 6 of the Paper.

I shall deal first with the heads of expenditure in respect of which amendments stand on the Order Paper Supplement. Head D 01 - Deputy Prime Minister. Mr Tang See Chim, amendment No. (1) .

Mr Tang See Chim (Choa Chu Kang): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head D 01 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 028.

Mr Speaker, Sir, Singapore is an international trading centre. It is, therefore, logical that we should join in international communication projects, and SEACOM is such a project. We should, however, be able to know the extent of our commitments. Unfortunately, our resources are limited and we must make the best use of them. From the estimates, I see that our original commitment was some $10 million. We are now, however, asked to increase our commitment by some $2 million. The reason given is that the increase is necessary because of the re-routing and increase in the capacity of the cable. It is, therefore, relevant to ask whether Singapore was consulted on the re-routing and also on the increase in the capacity of the cable to be laid. Can the Minister assure us that this will not be an open-handed commitment in which we will be asked to increase our contribution from time to time?

The Deputy Prime Minister (Dr Toh Chin Chye): Mr Speaker, to clarify the doubts of the Member for Choa Chu Kang, I would like to inform the House that the re-routing of the SEACOM cable was contingent on account of Indonesian confrontation. The original plan called for a cable which would run from Australia to New Guinea, New Guinea to Jesselton, and Jesselton to Singapore. However, when confrontation broke out in 1963, the plan had to be revised, and consequently the cable went up to Hong Kong, Hong Kong to Guam, Guam to New Guinea and New Guinea to Australia. Singapore, as a partner of SEACOM, has always been consulted on any changes in plans in cable routing, and the increase in capacity is to the advantage of all SEACOM partners. In fact, from what I gathered just now, the forecast is that even the capacity of 160 two-way channels will be very much limited in the near future, when the project itself opens. That is one of the reasons why ways and means are now being studied as to how to improve telecommunications between SEACOM neighbours - between Singapore and Australia on the one hand, and Singapore and Tokyo, and Singapore and Europe, on the other hand. I can assure the Member for Choa Chu Kang that all plans have been considered very carefully. It is not the intention of the SEACOM partnership to waste money unnecessarily. In any case, this is an investment because telecommunications brings in revenue and the expectations are that we will be able to recover our capital expenditure within the next 6 to 7 years.

The Chairman: Mr Tang, do you wish to withdraw the amendment or have it put to a vote?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied with the assurance given by the Deputy Prime Minister and I wish to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head D 01 be reduced by $10 in respect of new subhead 037.

Mr Speaker, Sir, telecommunication is vital to an international trading centre like Singapore. I think the Government deserves to be congratulated on its decision to acquire the assets of Cable and Wireless Limited and on its firm stand in its negotiations with the Malaysian Government in regard to the acquisition of Cable and Wireless Limited.

The point I want to raise is one of detail only. I just want to know whether we are paying the right price for the Company's assets. I have been trying to do some research on my own, but, unfortunately, without much success. Through the kind help of the House Librarian, I managed to get a copy of the Company's Report and Accounts for the Year ending 31st March, 1964 -that was just before the Company was acquired by the Malaysian Government then. Unfortunately, the Report contained only consolidated accounts of the Cable and Wireless Group as a whole, with no breakdown for the Singapore operations, and without any indication of the value of the assets in Singapore. I should be pleased if the Minister would enlighten us on this point.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, if the Member for Choa Chu Kang had earlier indicated to me what information he required, I myself could have done a little investigation into this enormous volume of files which began since 1962. In that year the lease of Cable and Wireless Limited was expiring and we had proposed the formation of an Overseas Telecommunications Board which would have, as partners, the Singapore Government holding 51 per cent of the shares and the Company 49 per cent. In fact, at that period we had conducted investigations into the capital assets of the Company. I can assure the Member for Choa Chu Kang that an enormous amount of detailed work has gone into the valuation of the plant and removable and immovable property of Cable and Wireless. He need not fear that we have been cheated or over-paid on account of the take-over. I will only add that there has been justice done to both sides, to the Company and also to us.

The Chairman: Mr Tang, in view of that, do you wish to withdraw your amendment?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $19,618,358 for Head D 01 ordered to stand part of the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1966.

Head D 04 -

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head D 04 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 013.

In this subhead, Mr Speaker, Sir, we are asked to vote some quarter of a million dollars without any details being given to this House. Outpatient service in the General Hospital is notoriously bad, and unfortunately, I myself have had a very unpleasant experience of such bad treatment. The usual excuse is that the doctors in charge are over-worked. If that is the reason, the remedy is surely to engage more doctors and improve the service, and not to inflict the result of this shortage of doctors on patients.

3.45 p.m.

Inche Mahmud Awang (Kampong Kapor): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, under subhead 013 of Head D 04, it is recorded that outpatient attendances have increased five times in the last decade while operations have increased about four times.

In the improvement to existing wards and the increase in the number of wards, I regret the conversions of Wards Nos. 61 and 62 into paying-class wards. The increase in the number of outpatient attendances and operations shows that the people involved are not well-to-do people and if we increase the number of wards to paying-class wards, this will not overcome the situation.

The Minister for Health (Mr Yong Nyuk Lin): Mr Speaker. Sir, may I answer the criticism of the Member for Choa Chu Kang in the first place? I believe he indicated that there was not enough information in Paper Cmd. 24 of 1966 on the request for additional funds to provide improvements to the Orthopaedic Unit.

I would like to give a little background history of this particular item - Improvements for the Orthopaedic Unit in Outram Road Hospital. The original plan was as late as 1958 - eight years ago - and it was then something like a $ 1� million proposal which in 1959 I felt was excessive, and I had it brought down to a sum of $300,000. There were therefore considerable savings for the State of more than $1 million. Of this reduced sum of $300,000, unfortunately, the Ministry of Finance provided only $50,000 for 1966. Later on, an approved transfer of $75,000 was granted, and the request in the Command Paper is for a sum of $224,400 which is really in keeping with a contract which has been let for a sum of $339,967.80. This does not include, however, a vote for "Furniture and Equipment" which is estimated at nearly $110,000, but this sum will be entered in next year's Development Estimates.

I hope that will meet the Member's request for more information on the expenditure of this sum of money.

To answer his second question that the outpatient service in the hospital is bad, I am sorry to hear that he has had an unhappy experience in the hospital and I would appreciate it if he would put this matter in writing, indicating the day when he was at the hospital and where he felt he had not been fairly treated, so that I can investigate further into the matter. Because I think it is pretty dangerous sometimes just to listen to one complaint and "tar" the whole service. In my opinion - as the Member himself has admitted - the doctors might have been grossly over-worked and were therefore perhaps a little short of temper during the wee hours of the morning. However, if I can get more information, I will be in a position to investigate into the matter fully and give a firm decision on it. But I do not think that it is as simple as suggested by the Member, that to meet the situation, all we need do is to employ more doctors. It is not that we do not wish to employ more doctors. There are on the establishment 450 doctors, and at the moment we have close to 400 doctors. The vacancies are there. It is available for any doctor who wishes to apply to be considered for appointment, and it is very rarely that we turn down any application from a doctor who wishes to join Government service.

As regards improvements to the conditions of service, etc., this is something which I, as a Minister, would very much like to encourage and support. But here again, there is my colleague, the Minister for Finance. In addition, there is already a Salaries Commission in existence and I do not think that we should anticipate events or to say things which would embarrass the working of this Commission.

I hope I have answered the comments of the Member for Choa Chu Kang and I will now answer the Member for Kampong Kapor.

He does not appear to be happy over the fact that the funds asked for are for the renovation of Wards 61 and 62 into paying-class wards, because he feels that this would not meet the situation of those less able to pay after being admitted into the hospital. It is important to remind him that the majority of cases admitted into the Orthopaedic Unit are in respect of accidents arising out of employment or motor traffic. In almost every instance, it is the employer who will be bearing the expenses for such treatment. Therefore, it will not in any way increase the burden for the less fortunate members of our public if they are admitted into paying wards, because it is the employer who will have to meet such liability under the workmen's compensation insurance which every good employer takes up to protect his liability.

As for the numerous accidents which we have - something like 100 motor accidents a day - every car on the road is covered compulsorily with third-party insurance, and therefore personal injuries as a result of motor accidents are rightful claims against insurance companies. I have already indicated sometime ago that it is our intention to make it so, so that insurance companies will meet these dues. In the past, for some queer reasons, the Government hospitals have not taken the trouble to send bills to insurance companies and I think it is time that this serious loophole in the revenue of the State should be plugged.

I can therefore assure the Member for Kampong Kapor that by having more paying-class wards in our Orthopaedic Units we shall not be penalising the poorer sections of the public, because we shall be able to recover most of the dues from employers or insurance companies. It is anticipated that we will be able to get at least $� million each year by this process and therefore we shall be able to recover all capital expenditure probably in a matter of years.

The Chairman: Will the Member for Choa Chu Kang please let me know if he wishes to withdraw the amendment or have it put to a vote?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $224,400 for Head D 04 ordered to stand part of the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1966.

Head D 06 -

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head D 06 be reduced by $10 in respect of new subhead 028.

In this new subhead, Mr Speaker, Sir, this House is asked to approve a sum of some $6� million for the improvement of Television and Broadcasting Services, again without this House being supplied with any information or a detailed breakdown of the amount required.

It is appreciated that there is urgent need for the improvement of television and radio services, especially the radio services, since our independence. We are a multi-racial, multi-religious and multi-lingual society professing and practising democratic socialist principles. We should therefore make our policy known to all our people at home and to project our image abroad, and the best means of doing so is through the television and radio services. But it does not mean that this House will approve some $6� million without knowing how the money is going to be spent. I understand that the sum is in addition to the sum of more than $3 million that has already been spent on the new Television House.

There is one thing I would like to say about television, and that is commercial advertising. Whilst we appreciate that it may be necessary to allow commercial advertising in television to help it pay its way, commercial advertising seems to be now getting out of hand, especially during what are called the "peak hours" when the amount of advertising time is fast approaching that of the ordinary programme time. If this tendency is not checked, we may soon get into the ridiculous situation of having the "Radio Weekly" detailing only the commercial programmes and leaving us to have glimpses of cowboys shooting Indians in between the commercials.

4.00 p.m.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: On the first query by the hon. Member, I wish to inform the House that the need for improving and expanding our television and radio services has become extremely urgent. Included in this expansion scheme are additional and more powerful transmitters for both radio and television and additional studio facilities for television. The sum of about $6� million is therefore required. Actually the total sum involved is $6.5 million and the breakdown is as follows -

Radio Service - radio transmitters are about $2.5 million, the frequency modulated transmitter is over $300,000, and there is also some payment of customs duties which amount to $160,000. T.V. Service to increase T.V. cover amounts to about $870,000; T.V. equipment (non-engineering) is about $570,000. And the Studios - four T.V. studios - works and buildings cost about $400,000, and equipment about $1.4 million.

On the second query in which the hon. Member expresses his fear of commercial advertising, I wish to state that it is necessary to get income from advertising to buy more expensive and better quality films as well as to cover part of the cost of running the T.V. station, which is, as we all know, an expensive affair. Compared with other countries, Mr Speaker, Sir, the frequency of advertisements appearing on T.V. here can be considered low.

For the information of the House, Sir, the cost of running T.V. Singapura is approximately $6 million per year, and the revenue from commercial advertising is about $3� million per year. Anyway, Sir, I can assure the hon. Member that my Ministry is keeping constant watch on commercial advertising so that it will not get out of hand.

The Chairman: Mr Tang, do you wish to withdraw the amendment or proceed with a vote?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the assurance given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $6,591,677 for Head D 06 ordered to stand part of the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1966.

Head D 07 -

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head D 07 be reduced by $10 in respect of new subhead 024.

Mr Speaker, Sir, there are two points to be considered here. The first point is whether it is necessary to disturb the present natural environment of MacRitchie Reservoir. The second point is whether, even if it is decided that we should do so, it is not a question of wrong priorities.

On the first question, Mr Speaker, Sir, I think MacRitchie Reservoir is a natural beautiful park as it is. I have visited it, and it has all the aesthetic features of a natural environment - tall shady trees, soft green grass, birds singing overhead, insects humming around. Mr Speaker, Sir, attap shelters cannot take the place of shady trees, and paved footpaths cannot take the place of soft green grass, and a floating fountain and a tea kiosk will not, I submit, Mr Speaker, Sir, improve the aesthetic features of the park. When concrete and mortar and a motorway are brought in, the natural environment of MacRitchie Reservoir will be no more.

I take it that the P.W.D. will be in charge of the project. The P.W.D. is a solid, hardworking department. Unfortunately, it has so far not proved itself capable of being the author of any aesthetically beautiful project. Take the Raffles Underground Car Park and Garden, Sir. It is functional but it is ugly. It has a fountain and a flower bed, but fountains and flower beds alone do not make beautiful gardens. It is the arrangement - the overall arrangement - of these things that makes beautiful gardens. Mr Speaker, Sir, if Mount Faber is another place to judge by, I feel very apprehensive about the natural beauty of our park at MacRitchie Reservoir. I do not think we have improved Mount Faber, scenically speaking. On the other hand, I have heard a lot of complaints that the cosiness of the place, the romance of it, is being spoilt. The harsh public lighting is no substitute for the soft moonlight.

But even granted that we are so insensitive as to prefer a man-made fountain to a natural running stream and decide that this project should be proceeded with, regardless, there is still the question of priority to be considered. We are a small country. Our resources, as I have said just now, are limited. We must, therefore, make the best use of them. We are here proposing to spend a quarter of a million dollars on something that needs no improvement, whilst, at the same time, in the rural areas basic amenities like electricity and piped water have not been provided for. In my constituency in Choa Chu Kang, for example, Sir, there are areas - and indeed large areas - where there is not even piped water, not to say the luxury of public lighting. And the money to be spent on these projects could be better spent, I submit, on the rural areas.

If a quarter of a million dollars could be channelled into the rural areas, it would do a tremendous lot to improve the basic standard of living of the rural people. It would be little comfort to the rural folks to be told by the Minister for National Development that they could watch coloured water playing in the floating fountain in MacRitchie Reservoir, when they have not even piped water at home to drink or to use. That is the irony of this project, Sir, and I beg to move.

Inche Mahmud Awang: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, on this new subhead 024, I would like to know from the Minister for Law and National Development whether the purpose of this vote is to make a park for the people of Singapore with the idea of reducing the dust and filth.

As I have said earlier about my suspicions regarding payments made to the Ministry of Health, I am rather worried if the use of the car park, as mentioned in this scheme, is to be paid for, as is done at the Airport at present, because it will be a burden to the people who want to make use of the car park. Normally, people who visit parks like MacRitchie Reservoir are usually poor. Although we see them going there in cars, these cars are sometimes borrowed from their friends or hired. For example, on a Saturday if someone wants to go for a ride or stroll in MacRitchie Reservoir during the day, he has to pay car park charges at High Street and then in the evening he will have to pay again. This will be a burden, Mr Speaker. There are also occasions when rich people go to the parks, but they will not make visits to MacRitchie Reservoir as they have better places to go to which are in line with their status. But there are also rich people who go to MacRitchie Reservoir. I would like to know once again from the Minister concerned whether the use of the car park proposed in this scheme will be paid for.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, I would like to speak on this item to express some of my personal views. On the question of establishing a paying car park, some Members have expressed their objection to paying car parks in certain areas. I feel that in some places it is necessary to have paying car parks. For example, on a public holiday many people go to the MacRitchie Reservoir grounds. So if there is a car park, it will be a great convenience to the holiday makers and visitors. And if the authority should impose a fee of, say, 40 cents per hour it is quite reasonable. Otherwise, without this imposition of a fee, there will be some jaga kereta boys operating in this area. They will demand payment from motorists, an act which is illegal. So the payment of 40 cents per hour or 20 cents per half hour is quite a reasonable measure. Government will in turn provide the necessary facilities and make use of the money in some other fields and the public will benefit.

4.15 p.m.

The Minister for Law and National Development (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, whilst it is desirable that development should, as far as possible, be spread throughout the island so that our population living in the various constituencies are all catered for, the hard economic facts are that it is necessary to ensure that the total quantum of funds available for development projects are utilised in the best possible manner. Although it is the aim to provide as large a number of the population as possible with basic amenities, like light and water, the deterrent factor is often the heavy capital expenditure involved in bringing electricity and water supplies to remote kampongs off the beaten track. Choa Chu Kang Constituency is one such area. The authorities concerned in deciding whether to extend supplies to specific areas have to have regard for the economics involved. A sufficient rate of return on the capital invested is necessary so that the scheme is economical and the Public Utilities Board is able to meet the requirements of the World Bank in respect of the prescribed rate of returns for loans. Nevertheless, as the Member for Choa Chu Kang will be aware, during the last six years a sum of $700,160 has been expended to provide water and electric services for Choa Chu Kang alone. This figure of over $700,000 is only for water and lights, and has nothing to do with roads or other amenities. On water supplies alone a sum of $65,230 was spent. On electric supplies a sum of $595,930. Street lighting in the Member's constituency cost $39,000. So as far as Choa Chu Kang Road is concerned - this is a road - water and electrical mains have been laid right up to the end of the road, and I can assure you, Mr Speaker, that Choa Chu Kang is a long road.

The other long road in that district is Lim Chu Kang Road. On that road electrical mains have been laid up to the 19th milestone, two miles from the end. No doubt, in due course, supplies will be extended upon request and, on the basis of determined priorities, to extend these to the end. Despite all endeavours, there will be villages in outlying areas far from the electricity and water mains where it will be exorbitantly expensive to provide the necessary amenities. In many of these areas, for example, the Southern Islands, Changi, Tampines and Sembawang, the number of consumers is relatively so small as to make the project completely uneconomical.

An example of the high cost involved can be seen from the fact that to provide one mile of water mains in Lorong Buang Kok, the cost was nearly $100,000. To provide electric supplies to 290 houses at Choa Chu Kang Road from the 13� milestone to the 14� milestone, just one mile, the cost was $163,740; while to provide one mile of street lighting from Bukit Panjang Village to Yew Tee Village, the cost was $23,000. That I hope, Mr Speaker, should dispose of the Member's arguments as to priorities.

The Member for Choa Chu Kang also made the suggestion that things at MacRitchie Reservoir should be left in their natural beauty. He does not want me to disturb the birds. I can assure him that the development envisaged at MacRitchie does not involve the cutting down of trees or turning the reservoir into an artificial garden. The development envisages the minimum clearance of shrubs and undergrowth only and the provision of certain facilities, leaving the trees and the landscape and the birds as far as possible in their natural state.

Mr Speaker, this town is expanding fast. There is an acute shortage of lungs and open spaces as a result of our tremendous housing programmes and the idea behind the MacRitchie scheme is to enable full utilisation of one existing open space by the population. The Member for Choa Chu Kang will agree that a healthy community is a vital necessity. The provision of facilities like a tea kiosk, a bandstand and a fountain at minimal cost will attract even more people to this already popular spot. Not only will the people in the neighbouring Thomson and Sembawang areas but also those from outlying districts, including Choa Chu Kang and Kampong Kapor, will be attracted to spend a pleasant evening in the environs of this reservoir by the provision of these minimal facilities. A tea kiosk is necessary in order to keep out hawkers from the reservoir parks so as to reduce the chances of water pollution. A floating fountain in the reservoir itself should enhance the beauty of the area at little expense. In short, Mr Speaker, the project envisages the enhancement of the natural beauty of the place by the provision of additional features and not the creation of an artificial garden. I am sure that when the development is completed the Member for Choa Chu Kang will be pleased with the results.

The Member for Kampong Kapor has been harping on the charges which, he says, we might introduce at the car park. He says, "Do not charge." The Member for Sembawang says, "Charge." I can assure both Members that before any fees are imposed careful consideration will have to be given. There must be a period of trial and experiment. At the moment, there are no car parking fees at MacRitchie Reservoir, though, I believe, the place is packed in the evening and at night. We will only introduce fees for parking at MacRitchie should the demand for car parking spaces exceed the amount of space available, and that, in fact, is the whole basis of car parking in Singapore. Unless we charge fees for parking, the day will come in Singapore, and it will come soon, when there is complete traffic chaos in the town. But no one has moved an amendment to the other subhead which deals with the underground car park, so I will not make any comments except to say to the Member for Choa Chu Kang that though he does not like the underground car park at Raffles Place, it serves a useful purpose and in fact a hundred per cent of the car parking places at the Raffles Car Park are now fully used.

As for Mount Faber, he is entitled to his own views. But you get a lovely view from Mount Faber, and if he does not like it, I suggest he go elsewhere.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not quite satisfied with the explanation given by the Minister. While it may be quite true that a tremendous amount of money is being spent in the rural areas - and he has given me figures for the amounts spent in Choa Chu Kang in respect of water and lighting - the fact remains that in these rural areas the basic amenities of life are not satisfied. My thesis is that unless and until such amenities are satisfied, it is against socialist principles that the urban areas should be given amenities that are not the basic requirements of life.

The Minister has also said that it is a matter of opinion whether Mount Faber is a better area after a tremendous amount of money has been spent on it. I do not think it improves it scenically and I am sure a lot of people do not think so. If that is the case, why should we spend money on something that is not necessary while, at the same time, leaving the basic requirements of life not satisfied? Take public lighting in Mount Faber, for example. I am sure it is not appreciated there. In fact, I think it does cause considerable annoyance to a lot of people, especially loving young couples who visit Mount Faber. Funds for such public lighting could very well be spent and would very much be appreciated in, for example, my constituency. That, Mr Speaker, Sir, is my thesis: that the Minister has got his priorities wrong.

Mr Barker: The Member for Choa Chu Kang argues that until every house in his district is supplied with light and water, my Ministry should not do anything about building parks or fountains.

4.30 p.m.

This is an argument which I cannot accept. It will probably be 10 to 15 years before every householder in his district is supplied with light and water. I have given the reasons why up to date water and electricity supplies have not reached every remote farm in his district. Does it mean that I can do nothing to improve the urban areas until I have satisfied every basic requirement of his constituency? I can assure him that we are spending more money every year on the rural districts. And this goes for every rural district in Singapore. Urban areas receive much less; then come the semi-urban or semi-rural districts; then come the rural districts. If we were spending more money on the urban districts than on the rural districts, then I would say we are wrong. But we are not doing .that. We are spending more money in his district, which is rural, than, say, my district in Tanglin which is semi-urban. But if not every householder in his district of Choa Chu Kang has light and water, I can assure him that there are people in my constituency in Tanglin who do not have light and water too. There are many other constituencies which do not have these basic amenities. But does it mean that we cannot build a fountain? We have built so many flats in Singapore and we are building more. We have spent hundreds of millions of dollars providing housing. If I were to accept his argument, it means that until we house everyone in Singapore, no fountain should be erected. But a fountain is a thing of beauty, and all he has to do is to visit the three fountains, the giant fountains which have been recently erected. I have not heard one word of criticism. The only words I have heard are words of praise.

As for Mount Faber, he grumbles about providing lights. When we do not provide the lights, he grumbles. When we provide the lights, he grumbles too. I believe he is the only bachelor in the House. But before you pull me up for being personal, Mr Speaker, Sir, I think I should not say anything further on that.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Speaker, can I contribute something towards -

The Chairman: Most certainly.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am inclined to agree with the Member for Choa Chu Kang that the provision of basic amenities for the rural areas is more urgent than that for the urban areas. I think the Minister is a little unfair when he says that even when we provide lights, the Member for Choa Chu Kang does not like it, and when we do not provide lights, he also does not like it. I think that is not the point of complaint of the Member. He simply said that the $30,000 which the Government wants to make use of to develop MacRitchie Reservoir, could be better utilised to develop the rural areas or places mostly populated by poor people who are in need of amenities. I remember at our last sitting the Member for Delta also shared the same feeling that whenever a fountain is built, it is built in the bourgeois area, say, in a place like Tanglin which is well provided. There is no necessity at all to build another fountain. That is all, Sir.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo (Bukit Merah): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, various speakers have spoken on the question before the House. I would also like to express my views and my feelings. I feel that this amount to be voted for actually exceeds what the Government have allocated for the Urban and Rural Services Committee, and exceeds the Committee's approval to be spent on Redhill, because the total expenditure on Redhill does not exceed $30,000. Since the expenditure on building a car park, attap shelters, garden seats and other things at MacRitchie Reservoir exceeds the sum spent on Redhill to provide basic facilities for the residents there, most of the poor people there may have adverse reactions to this sort of measure. As to the car park to be provided in MacRitchie Reservoir. I myself do not have a car, so I will not be making full use of the car park. But in Redhill there are many people who are still having difficulties in their livelihood and they have not reached a decent standard in their livelihood. I think it is better to promote and raise the living standard of the people in my constituency and other constituencies than spend more money on the areas already developed. What we want is something to meet the urgent needs and not to add more to what is already there. In other words, what we want is to have coal in winter rather than add more flowers to a bloom. In Redhill and other places we need further development. If sums are allocated for such development and when the living standard of the residents in the various constituencies can be raised by the vote, then I will be glad to see the Minister allocate more sums to beautify parks and the scenery at certain places, or to place certain singing birds in certain areas, including the rural areas. I have no objection then. But, first of all, we must try to raise the living standard and provide basic living amenities to these people before we vote for something to be spent on areas already developed. I can say that this kind of action is not 100 per cent socialist. The building of a car park and the planting of flowers in a public park - I do not understand whether all this has anything to do with our socialist principles. What we should be concerned with is how to raise the living standard of the poor to match that of the rich. We should not allow the poor people to be poorer and the rich to become richer. There is a strong contrast between the poor and the rich. If we enhance this difference, then I will not be happy to see it. There are millions of birds perched on trees singing all day long, but they would not please me. I think this sort of ideology should be reconsidered.

I support the amendment of the Member for Choa Chu Kang to reduce the vote by $10 and I agree with his sentiments.

The Minister for Finance (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Speaker, Sir, I quite understand the anxiety of certain Members of this House. Being members of a socialist party, they are a bit worried that there has been money spent on what they consider to be the richer sector of the community. But I would like to ask them to consider whether it is in the interest of the country as a whole if we are to stop developing the other sectors and keep on concentrating on bringing the poorer sectors up and letting the other sectors just -

Mr Ho See Beng: The need is greater.

Mr Lim Kim San: Quite agreed. The need is greater. But do we ignore entirely the other sectors and let them run derelict? Is that our idea of development? If these Members look at the Budget, they will notice that quite a large proportion of our expenditure is spent on social services and on the infrastructure of economic development - all with the purpose of uplifting the standard of living of our people. It is also our duty to see that the other sectors are not left derelict, that their standard of living, their standard of cleanliness and their standard of aesthetic beauty are not brought down to those of the poorer sectors. I think that must be kept in mind before they make up their minds about voting on this supplementary estimate.

The Chairman: Mr Barker, before you address and in order to avoid the necessity of your speaking again, may I inquire if there is any other Member who wishes to make a contribution to this debate?

Hon. Members indicated dissent.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I just want to make clear one matter which seems to be disturbing several Members of this House, and this is the question of fountains and I will come to the point. There are two fountains in my district of Tanglin. One is at Farrer Road -half that fountain is in my constituency and the other half is in Ulu Pandan. There is another fountain at Tanglin Circus, half of which is in my constituency and the other half in River Valley. Putting two halves together, I have got one fountain. Now, I would like to assure all Members of this House that when the sites for those fountains were chosen, I was not the Minister for National Development. I propose to give you the history of these fountains. The question of fountains at traffic circuses was first raised by the Prime Minister in a memorandum dated the 7th of November, 1963, to the Minister for National Development. At that moment, Mr Speaker, I was happily seated in your Chair. The Public Works Department was then requested to draw up a list of likely sites where fountains could be put up. The following sites were submitted: Orchard Road Circus, Raffles Place, King George V Park, Guillemard Circus, the roundabout at Farrer and Holland Roads, Tanglin Circus, Empress Place and Finlayson Green.

4.45 p.m.

That was all in 1963. Sketch plans and estimates of costs of these fountains were approved by my predecessor, the then Minister for National Development, and submitted to the Development Planning Committee for approval on the 2nd of June, 1964. The plans were to build small fountains costing about $35,000 each at these eight sites. The Minister for Finance - and I do not mean Mr Lim Kim San; that was Dr Goh Keng Swee - in his capacity as Chairman of the Development Planning Committee, disapproved of the list submitted and commented - "Better to have two or three lavish fountains than a large number of scraggy ones." As a result, the Scientific Adviser was requested to have a discussion with the Deputy Director of Public Works, the Chief Planner and the Chief Architect on the final plans regarding sites and sizes for some prestige fountains.

At a meeting held on 16th October, 1964, at the Prime Minister's Office, fresh plans for bigger fountains were considered and it was decided to proceed with the three fountains at the three sites just mentioned. That was the 16th of October, 1964. I was appointed the Minister for Law on the 1st of November, 1964. I was still then Speaker of this House. I was only appointed the Minister for National Development on the 9th of August last year. So in case Members of this House think that I only build fountains in my own district, I hope that the facts I have just presented will satisfy them that I had nothing to do with the planning of the fountains and, in particular, I had nothing to do with the choosing of these sites for the fountains.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, let me hasten to assure the Minister for National Development that I, for one, was not thinking that he was building fountains for himself. But there is still the general principle of priorities, and on this point I am not quite satisfied with the explanation given and I wish that this amendment be put to a vote.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The sum of $97,997 for Head D 07 ordered to stand part of the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1966.

The Chairman: The remaining heads of expenditure undisposed of are Head D 03, Ministry of Education, $479,000, and Head D 08, Public Works, Non. Recurrent (General), $200,030.

Question, "That the sums stated for the heads stated, as they appear in the summary of totals contained in Paper Cmd. 24 of 1966, stand part of the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1966," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $27,211,462 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1966 contained in Paper Cmd. 24 of 1966," put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply have come to certain resolutions.

Resolutions reported -

"That the sum of $36,707.05 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Statement of Excess for 1963 contained in Paper Cmd. 23 of 1964, as amended by Paper Cmd. 13 of 1966."

"That the sum of $27,211,462 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the First Supplementary Development Estimates of Expenditure for 1966 contained in Paper Cmd. 24 of 1966."

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolutions.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions accordingly agreed to.

Mr Speaker: We now revert to the introduction of Government Bills, but in view of the time and the fact that one Bill will be proceeded through all stages, I would suggest that I suspend the sitting now and resume at 5.30 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.54 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.