Committee

Mr Speaker: Committee stage, what day?

Mr Francis Thomas: Now, Sir. Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the Assembly do resolve itself into Committee on the Bill.

The Minister for Education (Mr Chew Swee Kee): I second it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 -

Mr Francis Thomas: Mr Chairman, I wish to move,

At page 1, line 13, to leave out the word "Omnibus" with a capital "O" and insert "omnibus" with a small "o".

This is a printer's error which should be corrected.

The Chairman: We will deal with that, as a typographical error.

Mr Francis Thomas: I also wish to move,

At page 1, lines 16 and 17, and at page 2, line 1, to leave out the words 'and includes an "omnibus" within the meaning of the Singapore Traction Ordinance'.

This is, in fact, otiose and unnecessary and the meaning is not affected by the omission, and it is therefore desirable to have it out.

Question, "That the word proposed to be left out, be left out," put, and agreed to.

Mr Francis Thomas: Mr Chairman, I have to move a consequential amendment to that,

At page 2, line 2, to leave out the word "that" and insert the words "the Singapore Traction".

This is necessary as the previous reference to the Ordinance has gone out, and we have to make it clear what Ordinance we are referring to.

Question, "That the word proposed to be left out, be left out," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the words proposed to be inserted, be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Mr Francis Thomas: Mr Chairman, I have to move a further amendment,

At page 2, line 7, after the word "Colony", to insert the Words "and shall be deemed to include the President of the City Council".

Question, "That the words proposed to be inserted, be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 -

Mr Francis Thomas: Sir, I have to inform you that the Governor's consent in respect of sub-clauses (1) to (4) inclusive has been signified.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Mr Chairman, Sir, I move,

At page 2, lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words "such persons being public servants not exceeding three in number as may", and insert "five persons of whom three shall be public servants to".

Amendment handed in.

The Chairman: The amendment is in order.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Mr Chairman, Sir, I have heard the Minister in charge of this Bill state that the present chaotic conditions of licensing are due to many heads with confused views representing too many people, but I believe that that is not the case. I personally feel that the chaos is due to people who, though they are dealing with licensing, know nothing about what is best for the people. I have heard that the three Government servants to be appointed are the President of the City Council, the Chairman of the Rural Board, and the Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Communications and Works. They are all fine men, Sir, but I think that they all ride in cars and that whatever news they have about the convenience of using buses is only second-hand. They do not have first-hand experience, and I believe that if we leave licensing to such people alone, you might have fair licensing but you will not have efficient licensing. You may have services to which bus owners might agree, but I doubt whether these people will come to the question of making them convenient for the people using them. These three public servants must be assisted. That is the reason why I propose that amendment. We may have three good men, but let two other persons who know the difficulties of the travelling public come in and assist them. It will also give people who are outside Government service a chance to voice their opinions. I do not say that we must have people coming from political ranks. I would say no to that. They must not be people connected with politics. If my amendment is accepted, the Government is still free to appoint whom they think fit, and I feel that two more knowledgeable heads would be better than three heads who do not know anything about the conditions of the travelling public.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out, be left out."

Mr Goode: Sir, the hon. Member moving this amendment stated that he objected to the present Licensing Authority, which rests with the City Council and the Rural Board, because he did not think they knew enough about the condition of the people who use buses. He objects to the proposed Licensing Authority of three officials on the same ground. As I understood him he wishes that the new Authority should consist of three officials assisted by two people who presumably ride in buses. They are to be people who are not connected with politics. I should like to ask the mover of the motion how he thinks that the Government is going to choose, out of this city of many thousands of people who use buses, two people who will be in a position to give solid and considered advice covering the bus services throughout the island.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Mr Chairman, Sir, the Government is always 'passing the buck' to the Opposition! The Government has always been trying to make use of the Opposition to solve their problems for them!

An hon. Member: Really?

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Anyway, if we can help, we will. Probably the two people might be chosen from the -

An hon. Member: Opposition?

Mr Lim Choon Mong: - ranks of the J.P.'s many of whom are still using buses, and J.P.'s are the people who are already trusted by Government, and the Government's choice will be narrowed down considerably.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew (Tanjong Pagar): Who chose the J.P.'s?

Mr Francis Thomas: I do not think we can accept this amendment, Sir. It is one which has previously been considered and I have, in fact, had one or two letters from members of the public to say that they thought there might be a case for putting members of the public on this Authority.

I would like to point out the extremely invidious and unpleasant position any such man would have to occupy. There is considerable money to be made out of securing a new route, and consequently a burden of coffee-shop talk does attach itself to the people who have the duty of allocating routes. It would be extremely hard on anybody not a public servant to have to bear that weight of contention when he says, "I think we should give this route and we should not give that." He has to make a choice - "I have to give it to this company and not to that company." These are painful and difficult decisions and it is an unnecessary burden to impose. To find some men to carry that burden seems to me to be unnecessary. The hon. Member envisages that these two men will be able to voice the opinions of the public, but, in fact, the public have every facility for voicing their opinions either in this Assembly or elsewhere or in the newspapers or by direct representations to the Minister dealing with transport. There is no special advantage in having their representations directly on the Authority itself. Their representations can reach the Authority quite successfully. If we put two people on, who will each necessarily reside in some particular district, to them will attach the suspicion that they are more interested in their own district than in other districts. It would expose them again to the question of doubt. These are the sort of disadvantages which would follow without any corresponding advantages in getting, in fact, any better advice than is available anyhow, and which would be fully taken into account by the various responsible and senior officers who are envisaged for the interim period as the Licensing Authority.

I would remind the hon. Member that the suggestion of a public body of members of the Authority not being officers of the Government was dismissed by the Hawkins Report.

Sir, I should have said in my opening speech that we have the Highways Coordination Committee already set up which has already been consulted about bus routes and bus matters and, in fact, it has expressed the greatest concern at the possibility of some of the applications now pending being granted, because it thought it might lead to a very serious deterioration in the traffic situation. This Highways Co-ordination Committee will be available and will be used for consultative purposes by the Licensing Authority when it is dealing with the problems of specific routes and whether they should be granted or not. The Highways Co-ordination Committee includes the City Council, the Rural Board, the planners of the S.I.T., the Registrar of Vehicles' Office, the Public Works Department and the Police, and thus covers effectively the wisdom of this country, such as it is, in dealing with matters of transport and road communications. I therefore regretfully say this amendment is not acceptable to the Government.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out, be left out," put, and negatived.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 5 -

Mr Francis Thomas: I have to inform you, Sir, that His Excellency the Governor has given his consent for clauses 5 (2) and (3).

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 6 to 10 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11 -

Mr Francis Thomas: I have to inform you, Sir, that His Excellency the Governor has given his consent to the House to proceed with clause 11(1) (b).

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 12 -

Mr Francis Thomas: Sir, I have to move,

At page 5, line 39, after the word "granted", to insert the words "to the Company".

This would make it clear that it is in respect of licences granted to the Traction Company and not to all companies.

Question, "That the words proposed to be inserted, be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Francis Thomas: Sir, I have to move, "That the Bill, as amended, be reported to the Assembly."

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported, with Amendments.

Third Reading

Mr Speaker: Third Reading, what day?

Mr Francis Thomas: Now, Sir. I move, "That the Bill, as amended, be now read the Third time."

Mr Chew Swee Kee: I second it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill, as amended, accordingly read the Third time.