Committee of Supply

Mr Speaker: Committee of Supply, what day?

Mr Hart: Now, Sir.

Motion and Schedule considered in Committee of Supply.

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Hart: Schedule

The Chairman: The summary is at page 8. There is no notice of any amendments.

Head 5-

The sum of $23,040 for Head 5 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head 8-

Question proposed,

"That the sum of $53,340 for Head 8 stand part of the Schedule."

3.24 p.m.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Mr Chairman, Sir, the reason why I have not tabled any amendments is because it would have required the Governor's consent and it is doubtful if the Governor would allow Members of the Opposition to interfere with the terms and conditions of service of certain officers, but that does not debar us from making some observations on "Subhead 1, new item - Permanent Secretary (Establishment), Grade C ($1,950) . . . $23,400".

Sir, in the local Press recently, there has been some debate as to what sum of money should be paid to local men who take over these Permanent Secretaryships. Those of us who look forward to a spirited service from our civil service are delighted to see that their leaders are men of calibre, men who understand that, with merdeka, comes the opportunity for greater service and not greater loot. I am sure though that not every member of the civil service who is either hoping now or, at some future date, to become a Permanent Secretary and enjoy the sum of $1,950 plus Variable Allowance, Travelling Allowance, etc., may be in agreement with the proposal of their Association's President and Secretary that $1,770 would be quite adequate and that, in fact, the trend should be downwards, not upwards. Sir, we are inheriting a false standard, a standard created by our white mandarinate who came overseas because they could not do as well "at home" in England. As we take over these positions of control, we must understand that the difficulty facing us is not the difficulty of getting more loot because whilst we are in control, we can fill our pockets. The difficulty is one of remaining in the saddle and of preventing the whole system from collapsing. There is what in Marxist terminology would be called a revolutionary situation in Malaya. There is a state of unrest. Men's attitudes and minds are undergoing a violent change. Before the war, we might have found peons quite happy and contented; the officer whose car door he opens every morning as he faithfully waits in the rain for him earns in one month what he earns in 20 months. Even today, a peon in the Government service gets somewhere around $120 a month, compared to the Permanent Secretary who gets somewhere around $2,400 a month. Anyone who is familiar with peons, not when they are in their livened uniform, now minus red stripes despite the desire of the Hon. the Chief Secretary to put them in livery, know that they are not happy at the thought that they earn 1/20th of what is earned by the men whom they have to answer to when the bell rings. What he earns in one month, the peon earns in 20 months. Hence, this desire for a rapid transformation in society. I was glad to note that one of the serving officers in a Press statement said that the trend is towards an egalitarian society.

Sir, there are some Members of this Assembly who, when they got elected, thought that the purpose of their coming into this Assembly was to put up a badge on their cars and inform the world that they were above everybody else and that they should be given the right of way. Some have even suggested that Ministers should have little pennants just as the Governor has the Union Jack, the Chief Secretary has the flag of Singapore, the Commissioner of Police has a little blue pennant and the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Malaya has an enormous blue flag with a tiger on it. Nowhere in the world have we a Vice-Chancellor flying a pennant. It is like those Japanese occupation days when every colonel, major, brigadier flew either a blue, red or yellow flag. If we try to maintain positions of privileges, then the whole system will collapse.

There are two ways in which we move towards an egalitarian society: one: we ease ourselves gently as those who have given and those who have not taken and evolve a new society; two: where the whole social order crumbles and a tight revolutionary dictatorship takes over and creates by force, if necessary, the new order of things. There are some societies in this world that have avoided such a violent and a painful revolutionary process. One is Sweden. Let me just inform hon. Members in this House what an egalitarian society means in a democratic Socialist country. The Director of the Swedish Railways gets 3,000-

The Chairman: Order. I was just wondering how a lecture on the egalitarian society has anything to do with Head 8.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Sir, it is very important in this respect, that although Members of the Opposition cannot move an amendment to reduce the salaries of the permanent officials who, as I pointed out, are earning in one month what their peons take 20 months to earn, yet, I would like to bring the attention of the Government to the fact that unless they lower these scales and boost up the scales of the under-paid groups, there is going to be a revolution and a violent one.

The Chairman: The only point I would like to make is that there is nothing to prevent an hon. Member from giving notice of a motion to reduce any item in any Head of expenditure. Of course, he might be faced with having to obtain the Governor's recommendation or consent, but I do not think that he is entitled to assume that he will not get the recommendation or consent of the Governor.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Sir, I have, on one previous occasion, sought the Governor's consent to discuss conditions of service of some class of officers which I have now forgotten. It was connected with the emoluments of the civil service. It was flatly turned down and those were in the days when we had a Chief Minister who was very keen on exposing the white civil service and all their misdeeds.

Sir, if I may just wind up my argument: I was pointing out that the Director of the Swedish Railways earns 3,200 krone as against 1,800 krone for his engine-drivers. In other words, the Director of Malayan Railways should get under twice what his engine-driver gets. I do not know what the exact figures are but I am quite sure that it is in multiples of ten that the Director compares to the engine-driver. I think that if the Labour Front Members had met - as the Chief Minister met - a very distinguished Israeli, Mr Moshe Sharett, Foreign Minister and Acting Prime Minister, they would have discovered that the highest paid man in the Israeli Government cannot be paid more than six times the lowest paid man. On that basis, I ask the Government to review the adoption of false European standards, superimposing them over our local mandarinate.

3.35 p.m.

Mr R. Jumabhoy (Telok Ayer): Mr Chairman, Sir, I support most of the sentiments expressed by the leader of the P.A.P.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: He is a Socialist.

Mr R. Jumabhoy: Mr Chairman, Sir, I also take off my hat to the local men who are going to take over the Permanent Secretaryships for offering that their salaries be reduced. Now this is the way in which you can make progress in this country. The money saved will thus go to meet other expenditure with the result that there will be less taxation and the masses will benefit by it. I have always said that the Ministers should follow that example and copy the salary scales of the Indian Civil Service, Ceylon and Burma. You have got to bring down your expenditure and then only you can spend more money for the welfare of the country.

Mr Goode: Mr Chairman, Sir, the comments made have covered a very wide field running from University flags to Swedish railway drivers.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Engine drivers.

Mr Goode: Engine drivers. It shows how little we in Singapore have to do with the railways.

The Member for Telok Ayer, I gather, has joined the People's Action Party and taken off his hat -

Mr R. Jumabhoy: Not in the least, Sir.

Mr Goode: Perhaps, he has not joined the Party and still has his hat on.

Mr R. Jumabhoy: That is to the local men.

Mr Goode: He referred - I do not doubt, from knowledge-to events in neighbouring countries and that is a very relevant point to the issue which has been raised. I understand, Sir, that in at least one neighbouring country, when they reached independence, they did introduce a very considerable cut in the salaries which, no doubt, they had inherited from their particular type of "mandarinate" - I think that is the word - and I am advised, Sir, that the result of that, no doubt, patriotic gesture at that time, was very adverse to the interest of the country. I mention that by way of starting to comment on the remarks made because I would like Members of the Assembly to regard this proposal to reduce the salaries of the civil service as one that has considerable complications and one that should be treated with caution and with due consideration. Do not please get led away into a quick decision by two or three "men of calibre" who have given tongue in the Press but have not yet thought fit to make any representations to the Government. There are a number of points which have got to be taken into account in dealing with what may, at first sight, seem a very attractive suggestion, that there is the local man to take over from the overseas officer and that it is patriotic and right that the rates of pay should be reduced. First of all, of course, there is already a reduction between what the local man gets and what the overseas man gets. The overseas man still draws that wonderful and much discussed extra pay - expatriation pay. Now, local officers do not get that and that should be remembered when you are considering relative salaries. But there are other very important questions which you have got to consider. First of all, you must relate what you are going to pay the top men in your civil service to the structure of the service as a whole. Two years ago, we revised the superscale structure of the civil service and when we were doing that, it was my very keen desire personally to reduce the number of superscale grades. I thought we had far too many and I made a great effort at that time to try and reduce the number of grades down to about three. Well, I found I could not do it. So we have now got five grades running from the top of the timescale to these posts of Permanent Secretary. Now, if you are going to reduce your Permanent Secretaries down to $1,770 a month, then obviously you have got to do one of two things: you have either got to reduce the number of grades or you have got to downgrade every grade below them including the top of your timescale. Now, it may be that that would be a good thing to do and it is possible that the top of the ordinary timescale is too high. If you start reducing the top of your timescale, then you may have to consider reducing the bottom of your timescale and you are involved in a very complex business of revising your salary scales throughout the whole Government service. I do not think that you can change one series of top posts without getting involved in those complexities.

Another very important point is that you must bear in mind the comparable rates of remuneration which can be obtained by local people in doing similar type of work in non-Government establishments. You must relate the remuneration a man can get in the Government service with the remuneration he can probably get in your big industrial business concern. If you do not do that, then you only get a second-rate man going into your public service and, of course, you must consider very carefully the rewards that can be obtained in the professions. Now we have a legal service in the public service and we must have a good legal service. In order to recruit your legal service, you have got to compete with the rewards that are won by people at the Bar and if the rewards cannot possibly be commensurate and reasonably related, then you will not get the right type of man to be your legal adviser and you will not get the right type of men eventually to fill your posts of Attorney-General and on the Bench.

I do not think I need say any more but I would just stress that while, at first sight, it seems attractive, we should not jump to a hasty conclusion, that because a certain number of individuals have made a gesture - no doubt, a very fine gesture - of having their salaries reduced, we should at once accept the offer. It is a more complicated business than that and if the view is held that the salary scales throughout the service that are inherited are too high, then the simple remedy is to reduce the variable allowance which is provided for that express purpose and leave the main structure unaltered, unless you wish to become involved in a very complicated and prolonged business.

3.44 p.m.

Mr Braga: Mr Chairman, Sir, it is rather interesting to hear the Member for Tanjong Pagar cite as examples what happens in Sweden and Israel as a pattern upon which we should base the salaries of our Government service. I would like to ask the hon. Member in how many multiples of ten does he earn a year as compared with his lowest paid clerk or even his highest paid clerk? Is it a question of do as I say but not as I do?

Mr R. Jumabhoy: Sir, the Hon. the Chief Secretary just explained to us that we should not be carried away. May I enquire whether the lowering of salary scales is under consideration by the Government?

3.45 p.m.

The Chief Minister: Mr Chairman, Sir, the Hon. the Chief Secretary has already said that the Government has not received any official approach from the officers concerned and therefore the Government is not in a position to consider it but there is one other point which we must not overlook. In the drawing up of a salary scale for civil servants in Singapore, all the Committees that have sat on the question of a salary scale tried to evolve a salary scale on the basis of the rate for the job. In their view, the rate for a Permanent Secretary is $1,950 a month. Surely, it does not mean now that just because an Asian is going to take over the job, he cannot qualify for the job and that his rate should be lowered?

3.46 p.m.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Mr Chairman, Sir, it is a sad thing to see the head of what professes to be a Socialist Government talk about whether a man is worth the rate for a job and say that if you reduce the salaries of the officers, it is a slight on them. It would reflect on their merits since it would be said that they are not worth what their European counterparts are worth. Does he not understand that there are values, human incentives, which money cannot buy? That when a man says, "I will give up this because I believe that it is going to do good," that man is worth much more than the man attracted and retained with expatriation pay?

Now, Sir - just an aside to the Hon. the Minister for Health - I think he was conscience-stricken because he was on the House Committee that recommended the badges for cars. Let me inform him that far from not doing what I preach, I sincerely believe in everything that we say about an egalitarian society. It might interest him to know that if he goes back to the legal profession, he will find that there is a trade union of employees of lawyers' firms whose leaders include employees of my firm.

The Minister for Communications and Works (Mr Francis Thomas): Answer the question.

Mr Hart: Sir, I am afraid that there is very little which I can add to what has already been said in this matter. I would say this: none of the officers who are making this gesture have yet performed the duties of the post of Permanent Secretary. If they fulfil the duties and bear the responsibilities of the post in full, as I am sure they will, I can say, in all sincerity, that they will earn every cent of the salary now fixed for the post.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: And a C.M.G. too?

Question put, and agreed to.

The sum of $53,340 for Head 8 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head 9-

The sum of $10 for Head 9 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head 23-

The sum of $23,400 for Head 23 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head 26-

Question proposed,

"That the sum of $10,000 for Head 26 stand part of the Schedule."

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Mr Chairman, Sir, can we be informed as to what good the Royal Singapore Flying Club is doing for the people of Singapore? Is it a Club engaged in entertaining its own members or in flying?

3.50 p.m.

Mr Francis Thomas: Sir, since the Member cannot inform himself, I will be glad to inform him. A flying club is a club which helps people to fly and it is very valuable in Singapore that we should have many people who are interested in flying and competent to fly. It forms a reservoir of flying talent and an encouragement to the young men to go into civil aviation careers. We are hoping that, in the next few years, we shall get a very significant expansion of civil aviation here and it will be a sad story if we have to import the expatriates, who so irritate the Member for Tanjong Pagar and the Member for Serangoon too, instead of using our own local boys. It is with the idea that the Flying Club can make a significant contribution to the ab initio training in certain cases and perhaps, more valuably, to the general air-mindedness of Singapore, that this contribution is proposed. You will not get a high standard in a few people unless you have a wide interest amongst many people. Not every badminton player in Singapore hopes to play in the Thomas Cup matches but you get a high standard in the Thomas Cup matches because there is a general interest throughout a very large part of the population and the same thing applies broadly to any of the skills, arts and techniques of modern life - that you need to have a large number of people interested.

I do not know how much detail the hon. Member would like me to go into. I can go into a great deal if he would like me to-

Mr Lim Choon Mong: What about the Malayan Air Training Centre?

Mr Francis Thomas: The M.A.T.C. is one organisation providing a certain amount of training; also, the Malayan Auxiliary Air Force. There is also the present Royal Singapore Flying Club and I think all these three are necessary and, to some extent, inter-related, particularly the Royal Singapore Flying Club which has given a certain amount of assistance to the M.A.T.C. The Flying Club has also issued 99 licences to European members and 38 to Asian members but in August last, there were 16 European student pilots and 12 Asians in the Flying Club. In other words, you can see that the Asian proportion is steadily moving upwards in relation to the European proportion. This delights the Member for Tanjong Pagar: he is hoping to put me off and embarrass me by my seeing his broad grins. Why he should regard it as humorous that Asians should learn to fly - and there should be as many Asians flying, I hope, soon, as there are expatriates at present - I cannot imagine.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Why did you not support Malayan Airways?

Mr Francis Thomas: It is not clear what connection Malayan Airways has with the Royal Singapore Flying Club except, of course, that they did, through the Flying Club, get the training for some of their pilots. Does he prefer that the pilots should not get the training?

I think I have already said enough to indicate the value of the Flying Club but I can come back to it again if further questions are asked.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: I do not know if the Minister for Communications and Works had ever visited the Flying Club. I myself never had that privilege but I do know a number of friends who regularly visit the Club. They spend their time more on drinking than on flying. Incidentally, it is one of the few bars in town that open up to the very early hours of the morning. To grant a subsidy of $10,000 in order that we should teach British pilots how to fly and go and attack the Egyptians is absolutely outrageous.

Sir, I grinned broadly because I wondered, whilst the Minister was talking, whether he believed in all this piffle that is being put over, that this $10,000 subsidy-

The Chairman: Order. It took some time for that word to sink in but I think "piffle" is unparliamentary.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: If I have to withdraw "piffle", then I will say all the poppycock that is being put over.

The Chairman: Order. I am afraid that "poppycock" is also unparliamentary.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Well, Sir, to use quite a neutral word "waffle".

Sir, we are urged to give $10,000 to a select group of men whose social habits take them into expensive pursuits and whose eventual benefit to the community is more than speculative. We were enthralled with the vision of this $10,000 creating mass enthusiasm for flying: everybody paying $10 for a joy-ride to be taken up into the air. We are told that one day we might have an air force. When I last debated Malayan Airways in this House, I mentioned to the Minister the fact that not one of the pilots had been trained in Malaya, that there was no local man as captain of any aeroplane in Malayan Airways and that all the local pilots had been trained overseas. He did not lend his support for what I was then urging, namely, that he should impose conditions in the new franchise to see that, within a definite space of time, local men will take over the flight operations of all aircraft of Malayan Airways. Then, he talked about factors of confidence: that if you change these pilots, there may be air crashes and loss of public confidence in air travel. Well, let me tell him this. We on this side of the House are not impressed by his waffle.

Further, Sir, we want to know on what basis was this $10,000 computed? We first attack the grant on principle. When we have acquainted ourselves with the basis of that figure we may attack the figure itself.

Mr D. S. Marshall (Cairnhill): If it please you, Sir, I am a member of this Club at which the hon. Member has seen fit to fling a waffle. I have been a member for some 16 or 17 years, Sir, and joined it to learn flying, shortly after the Munich talks, when I hoped to be able to be of some use to this country. I must say that though I tried very hard, I failed, but I cannot remember ever having spent the early hours of the morning at the bar of the Club, Sir, It may well be that my learned Friend's nocturnal habits give him a greater experience in this respect but whether they do have a bar or not, it does not mitigate from the utility of their activity to the community. The fact that they are giving training to those who are prepared to avail themselves of this opportunity is something of which we must take cognizance. It will be prohibitive unless they have a subsidy. If it is of value to the country -

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

Mr Hart: Sir, some progress has been made on this particular item and I ask leave to continue tomorrow.

Mr Speaker: Tomorrow it will be.

Remaining items on the Order Paper taken as read, and set down for tomorrow.